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s^    \^    •■^  *     \ 


JED:3RAL  milk   COTC-ISSIOr  POR   ITEY/  El'CrLA]:^. 


d- 


Boston, 


^vovenlDer    22,    1918 


KEAPd: 

\-'r   BE^OEii; 

ThJi  r 

—I  TS   711- 

AL  Llllii 

COM:' 

;issior  x^ 

OR 

I'EV/  3! 

'GLATID  ir 

il  0  cm 

443, 

3t  at  e 

nouss 

!,   at  10. 

50 

0 ' cloc 

Ic    at    ra I  , 

or    t  h 

e    :iuestioii 

of    a 

-oogsi"ble 

r  e  ad,1  < 

istment    of 

•  milk 

pri 

CSS    lor 

"'e  w 

"^neland. 

I 


<30 


ChairiTian  Allen  [presiding]  ;    Secretary,      Dr.    Arthiu"   V" 
'al'cert . A    qu 0 r um   iva s   p r 3 s e n t  . 


Chairman  ALL'HT'''^,    in  callings   to    order,    said:        The 
hearing   will   come  to    order,        Mr.    Swan,    do  you   want    to   present 
your   case? 


± 


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a. 


STAT:tj7TElTT    3Y  ?CT^ .    WILLI  A"':    U.    5¥AM. 

I    would   like   to    say  a  few  words,    ''r.    Chairman,    yes. 

Ttr.    Chairman    and  gentlemen,    this   Commission  has 
been   sitting,    I    helieve,    for   ahout    a   ysar,    and,    so   far   as 
the    consumers  are    concerned,    I   think  those    who   are   familiar 
vvith  the    work    of  the    Commission   are   ajrre^d  that    that    work 
has  been    done   very   conscientiously  and  v/ith   some   practical 
results.      In  fact,    from  V7hat    I    tnow  of  the    thinly,    it    appears 


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that    you  have   accornplished  more   than   any   other   similar   Com- 
mission  in  this    country,    or   even   in   'England,    where   the   milk 
question  has  "been   more   debated  than   here.        If  you  have   done 
nothing  m.ore   than  find  out    the   actual    cost    of  producinp;  a 
quart    of  milk   and   distrihutin^j    it,    we    are   a  g'reat    deal   farther 
ahead  tlian   we    ever   were   before. 

It    seems,    however,    to   the    considers   as   if  the   time   had 
about    arrived  when   they  should  have    some  more    substantial 
recognition  than   has  been    sho?m   by   t]ie   attitude    of   tliis   Com- 
mission,   in   kespinp   down   the   demands   of  the   producers  and   the 
distributors  for   a   great   deal   hij^her   prices   than   seem   appar- 
ently  necessary.        In    other    words,    if  the   Commission   had  lis- 
tened to    or  had   eranted  the   m.aximum  demand   of  both  the   dis- 
tributors and  the   producers,    we    v/o'-iid  have   beer   payinp-   some- 
where between  twenty  and  twenty-five    cents  a   quart   for  milk, 
whereas,    as   it    is   novv,    we   are  getting    it    for   less  than    seven- 
teen   cents.  •,  •  •     ^     ..•. 

I   don't   know  v/hat  ^'"r.   Pattee   expects   to    say  to  you 
to-day  or   what   the   attorneys  for   the    distributors   VTill   say, 
but    it    is    on   the   face    of    it   apparent    that    they   will  ask   for   a 
trifle   more  money  and  that    after    the    first    of    Decem^ber    we    will 
probably  be   asked  to  pay   seventeen    cents  a   quart   for   distributed 
milk  in  Boston. 

Tne    consum^ers,    I   think   the   Comjnission   will   agree ,    have 
supported  the   Commission  rig-ht    straight    thrcun-h   v/ith   the    sazae 
loyalty   with  which  they  have   bou.">;t   Liberty  bonds    or   sub- 
scribed to   the   P-ed  Cross.      In   other   words,    they   have   paid  the 
constantly   increasing   prices   for  milk  and   have,    with   the    ex- 
ception   of  comparatively  few  cases,    kept   up   their  takings 


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apparently  withoiit   any  protest.        In   fact,    except   for   the 
few  wea]r  words    of  ^ayself ,    I   believe   scarcely  anybody   has 
hati   come   up  hare   and  made   any   sort    of   protest   or   even   remark 
as  to    these  milk  prices. 

'But,    as   I    say,    the    time    seems  to   be   rapidly  approach- 
ing  when   these   consiimers   should  have    a  trifle   more    consid- 
eration.       The   endinr-    of  the    war    will  undoubtedly  release 
some   labor,    and,    while    it   m.ay  be    true   that    those   farm   hands 
who  went   to   the  m.unition  ijla^nts   T/ill   not    like   to   j^o  back   to 
the   farms  and  wcrk  twelve,    thirteen,    and  fourteen   hours   a 
day,    when   they  have   been   getting   good  pay   for    only  eight 
hours,    and  have   been  down   here   enjoying   all  the    attractions 
of  the   city,    yet    it    is    said  by  emploj-inent   managers  that  many 
of   the   boys   who   have   been    in   active    service    abroad  may  like 
something    of  the    quiet   farm   life    as  a   contrast   to    their   ac- 
tivities  at   the   front.        At    any  rate,    there   should  be   an 
increase   in.  farm   labor   v/ithin  the    next    six  months.         I    am 
also    infonned  by   the  manager    of   the    State   Sm_plo;>T3ient    Associa- 
tion tiiat    during   the   past   year,    in   spite    of   the    cry   of   the 
farmers   that   they   v/ere  unable    to    obtain  help,    the    applications 
for   farm  help   at   tliS.t    office    on  Kneeland  Street   have  been 
less   diiring   the   past   year  than    in   any  year   since   the    office 
Vi^as   established.  .  _.  -■■ 

Whether   the   price    of   feed   will  also    shoViT  a  reduction 
because    of   the    end   of   the   v/ar   is    sometliing   Vih^ich  I   am  not 
particularly  familiar   with,    but   there    is   certainljr   som.ething 
to   be   hoped  for    in   thiat    line.  _...,.,., ,    ...     .. 

In  any  event,    it    seems   as   if,    with    a  ma^ximaim  price 
of    seventeen    cents    in   December,    the   top   price,    in  }:oston   at 


■0    :r. 


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least,    v/culd  te   reached,    and  that    the    consumers   ought   to   have 
some   reduction    or  he    ahle   to   loot  forward  to    sorne   reduction 
ahout   the   first    of   .January   or   perhaps   the   first    of   Pehruary. 

The   point    I   want   to  hrinf?    out   ?^.ore   especially  is 
that,    while    this   Commission   has   undouT?tedly   done    excellent 
m'ork   in    ascertaining:   the    cost    of  producing      a   quart    of  milk 
and   distrihut. inrr    it,    it    seems  to  me   the    general  puhlic    will 
ask  the   Com.mission   to   fo   for-yard   still  farther   and   set   up 
som.e    constructive    S3."stem_   of  handling  the  miljc   situation 
for  the   henefit    of   the    consizmer . 

'^'^.'hether   these   figures   Dr.    '^-ilhert    has  hers  have    gone 
sufficiently  far  to    show  whether   there    are   v;asteful  methods 
in  m.ilk  production   and  milk   distribution,    I   am,    of    course, 
unaTole   to   say.      That    is    entirelj-  up  to   the   Comro.ission  .      It 
7rould   seem  that    tlie    Commission   had   some    frood,    active    work 
hefore    it    in   pointing    out   to   the   producers   and  distributors 
som.e  methods   of  more      econom.icallj"   carrying   on   their  husi- 
nessj    tut    if   the   Comi^dssion   could  go   farther,    for   instance 
in   the  matter    of   milk   distribution,    and  establish  here   in 
Boston   a   system  "by  which  m_ilk  would  he    distrihuted,    some- 
what   on  the  hasis,    we   will   say,    of   a   system,   of   vvater    distri- 
hution,    wherehy  the   m.ilk   should  flow  into    the   city  through 
great  m.ain   arteries   and  he   distributed  from   central  milk 

stations,    with  the   idea  that   the    different    distrihutors  here 

it 
should  pool   all  their    interests,  ,^  would   seein   as   if   som.ething 

in  that    line   might   he  done   for   the   henefit    of   the    consumers. 

It    has   heen    said   hy   som.e   that    the   present   method    of    dis- 

trihuting  milk   is   as   economical   a  m^^thod   as    is   possihle, 

hu.t   to   the    averap-e    consLimer   it    would   seern.   as    if    it    were   a 


'.-■     u.t    o-ff 


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very   wasteful  method  to  have   h^lf    a  dozen  Tnillc  wap:ors   f^o 
rollinp;   through   one    street,    and  the    thoufrht    sug-gests   itself 
that    the   Oommission  mie-ht   find   out,    or    sone    CoTrmiission   similar 
to   this,    whether   it   mip-ht   not   he   feasihle    to    establish  cen- 
tral  stations  fro'n  whicji  the  milk   could  he    handled  here    in 
Boston.      I   think   something   of  the   kind    is   heinf^   attempted 
in  Rrockton,    hut,    as  far  as    other    cities    in  the    country  are 
concerned,    it    v.'culd   seem,  from  the   reports   in   the   papers   as 
though  very  little   was  heing    done    along   that    line.        On  the 
other    hand,    there    seems  to   he    in  those    other    cities   far   great- 
er  dispute   "between  the    distrihutors    and  the   producers   than 
there   is    in  T^oston.      In    other   words,    the    work   of  this    Con- 
miission  seem.s   to    have   gone   farther   and   to   have  been  pro- 
ductive   of   hetter   results   than   that    of    similar   CoEimissions 
in    other   pa.rts    cf   the    United  states.        But    if  this   Comm.ission 
can   assure   the   puhlic   that    it    is   going-   to    extend   its  activ- 
ities  and   is   looking   a   little   farther   ahead  towards   the    es- 
tahlishment    of   a   little  more    econom.ical    system    of  milk   dis- 
tribution tlian    is   now  heinc    carried  on.  by  half  a  dozen   dif- 
ferent   dealers,    it    seem.s   to   me    it   would  give   the   public   great- 
er  confidence    in  the   Comjnission. 

I  think  comparatively  few  people   are   aware    of   what 
excellent    v/ork   you  have    done    and   of   how  very  much  nearer   we 
are   to-day  to   finding  the    actual   cost    of    distributing  milk 
than   we    otherwise    would  be,    by  reason   of  your    labor.        Some 
,   of   the    papers   are    still  h_ammering  you   and  are   still  hammer- 
ing  the   producers   and  the   distributors,    and   axs   clai'-iing 
!   th^.t    there   is  a  milk  trust.      '?'hey  feel   that    we   are   paying   too 
'  much  for  milk  and  that    the    producers    are    sending    in  a  very 


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the 
poor   quality   of  milk.        Those    familiar    wj.th  Tousinese  know 

very   wall  that   the    quality   of  milk,    as   a  rule,    holds  ri|crht 
up  to   the  ^Massachusetts    standard,    e.vd   is   usually  -nuch  hetter 
than   the    3.5  per   cent,    required.        They  also    realize   that 
the   farmers   are    sending    in   a  very   large   anount   and  that   you 
are    working;   hard  for   the   estahlislTment    of   a   system   for 
handling  the   surplus,    a  prohlem.  which  to   a  msra  layman   seems 
so    complicated  that    comparatively'-  few   of    us   understand  what 
it  really  means;    hut    we   have    sixfficient   confioence    in   the 
Comm.ission  to  feel   that    what    it    is   doinp-    is  heing  done    for 
the   henefit    of   all  the   parties   involved  in  this  very  interest- 
ing  question. 

It    is   apparent   that    the    farmers,    despite   their    cry 
for   help,    are   receiving'   a  wonderfully'-  his-h   price   for  m.ilk. 
The   records   from  "'r.    Pattee's   office    show  that   five    or  six 
years    ago   the  farmer    was   receiving   in  the   neighhorhood    of 
two   and   one    half   cents   a   quart    at    the   barn   door  for   the 
country   station,    where   to-day  he    is   getting   eirht    cents   a 
quart   for   a  trifle  more   in  the    region   of   the   highest    pro- 
duction,   which  means   an    increase    of  more   than   two   hundred  per 
cent,    in   the   price    of  milk  to  the   producer.        It    would  seem 
as   though  there   v/ere   comparatively  few   commodities   that   have 
shown    such  a  tremendous   rise    as  milk,    and,    while   it    is    ad- 
mitted that   the    consigner   has   had   to   pay   only  about   one   hundred 
per   cent,    advance,    yet   t}]e   producer   has   certainly  benefited 
wondsrfiaiy  through  the  establishment    of  prices  by  the   Com- 
mission. 

It    is   undoijbtedly  true   that    tlie    cost    of  feed,    labor 
and   other   things,    has      increased,    but   the   fact   that    the   greater 


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mjrnber    of    dairy  men   in  Vermont   to-day  are   haulins;   their  milTc 
from  the   farm  tg   the   country    station   in  autoraohile   trucks, 
and  are   apparently   in  a  very  prosperous   condition,    would 
seem  to    s}iow  that    these  hif?h  prices  have  been  a  distinct 
"benefit    to   them. 

As   I   have    said,    what    the    consumers   would   like   to   see 
is   some  rift    in   this   cloud,    as   ycu  "licrht    say,    of    rising-   prices, 
or   some    chance    ahead  whereby  they  may  h-^ve   an    opportunity   of 
payinc   something   less  for  "nilk   than    they  have   been   payin?^  for 
the    last   four   or   five   years . 

I   think  that    is   about    all   I   have   to    say,    ^"^r.    Chainnan . 

Com.    BIRD.        ¥.r .    Swan,    I   think  you   said  that    there 
has  been   an    advance    of   about    one  hundred  per    cent,    to   the    con- 
sijcner  between  the   time    when   the    Commission   started  and  the 
present   time.        I   believe   there   has  been  an   advance    of    only 
forty  per   cent  .  .  .    .  .. 

Mr.    SWA''.      I   did  not    say,    since   the   Comj5iissiGn   start- 
ed.       I    said  that    about   five   years   a^o  the   producer   received 
in  the   neif^hborhood   of   two   and  one   half   cents   a   quart    at    the 
country   station    in  the   region   of   the   highest,    heaviest  pro- 
duction,   central  ''.''ermont,    and  that    to-day  the   price    paid  to 
him  at   the    country   station    is    somewhere   in  the    neicrhborhood 
of   eight    cents,    or  betv^resn   seven   and   one   half   and  eight    cents 
a   quart,    which,    as   you   see,    fip-ures    something    over   two    hundred 
per   cent,    increase    in  the    last   five    years.         In  that    same 
period  the    increase   to   the    consumer  has  been    about    one   hundred 
per   cent.      That    is,    for  the   milk   sold  five   years   aso   the   con- 
siffiier   paid   about    eight    cents  a   quart,    and  he    is  paying  to-day 
about   sixteen   cents   a  quart. 


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8 


Oom.    EIRD.      I   beg  pardon.      I   thought    you   ware   re- 
ferring  to   an   advance   since   the   Coimnission  had   come    into 
existence . 

¥r,    SWAfT.        Fo.      I    admit   that    since    the   Commission 
took  hold  the    increase   has    not    heen   more   than   thirty   or 
forty  per   cent . 

Chairman    AXIliT'i.      i    am  sure   the    Commission  feels 
grateful,   ''r.    Swan,    for    the   kind  words  you   have    said  as   to 
the    intention   of   the   Commission. 

Mr,    SWAj-t.        I   think  the   Commission  h^s  tried   to    deal 
'.vith  this   very   intricate   prohlem  very  loyally  and  -^erir  ear- 
nestly,   and   'vith  a   spirit    of  fairness  to   all  hands.      I   do   not 
think  that    the   public   has   s'tff iciently  realized  that.    Toe- 
cause   they   are  not   perhaps  fam_iliar    with  the    work    of   the   Com- 
mission   in   keeping    down   virhat  migiit   have  been   som.e   very   ex- 
cessive  prices,    if   the   Comjnission   had   not    acted. 

Chairman  ALLU".        We   are   also   very  glad  to   get 
your    sugcresticns    in   regard  to    som.e    constructive    effort. 
We   have    the   figures  put    in   yesterda:'  before    the    exec^^tive 
comjnittee   for   the   various  malk   distributors,    and  if   there    is 
any   question  row  to   be   asked   about    those   figures   we    virill  be 
glad   to    take    them.   up.  ' 

^"^r.    Cl'SICK,        Did  you  mean,    as  far   as   the   dealers 
are   concerned? 

Chairman  ALLM .     Yes.      ''■Ve   will  hear   the   dealers 
first,    this   morning. 


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1-2^ 


IX. 


•.  :^^-^x  ■■ 


STATTg'riJlI'TO]?   JOEIT  g.    CUSIGK,    Esq. 


I'r.    CUSICIC,        Mr.    Chairman,    I    want   to    say  this. 
We   put    in   our   firrures   as    rearly   in   accordance    with   what    so^ie- 
Toody    calls   the   Eihle,    what    I    call  tha   Sool:    of   hsvelat ions , 
which  I    tliink   is    nearer    to    it,    as  possihle,    and   vye   ha-ve   now 
got    a   copy    of    the    sliest    sent    hy  li.    ?.   hood  c-.   Sen.         That 
does   not    conioi'n   v/ith  the    raquirsments   of  t>is   cost    ac- 
counting.        I   have    ,-i  ust   he  en    takinT    it    up   witli  L'r .    Sears. 
I    did  "ct    have   the   ti^e    to    take    it    up   with  him   hefcre. 
These   fif-'ires  put    in.  by  h.   F.   Hood  6:   Son   cannot   be    cheched 
up   co!^.paratively   with   our  firrures.      This    is    a  matter   that 
affects   not    only   us,    but    the    Eonrd.      If   you    vvili    lo  olc   at 
the    sheet    they   have    subruitted,    you    will    see   that    their 
figure   brins-s   the   total   cost,    assembled   under   the    direc- 
tions   of   t}:e   Comraission    --   that    is,    und^^r   the   method  pro- 
vided by  the    Commission    --    down   to    .06712.         The   Alden 
Company  sheet   for    September,    as   furnished  under   this    direc- 
tion,   indicH.tes    a  total   expense    of    ,08279;      the   Consolidated 
Whitingr   sheets    indicate    a  cost    of    .08469.      There    is   no 
doubt    in  my  mind,    from   a   ci.irsory  vier:   of   t]-is    sheet    of 
the   Hood  Company,    that   probably   som.e    error   or  mistake 
has   been  made    in    it.      It    has  been    submitted   to    our    ac- 
countants,   and  they  think,    too,    that    there   has   probably 
been    som.e   mistake   ma.de,    or   else    that    all   ti:e    items   required 
under   the   Ecard's  methods   have   r^ox    been    figured.         That 
is    only  sruessvvrork,    and   I    cannot    tell  you    clearly   about    it, 
in  the    absence    of   the    second    sheet    recpjired   by   ti'is    Com.- 
mAssion.         That    sh^et    is   rot   here.  The      importance    of 


)'"!-!:d    e 


c:-rt 


Itb'-^i 


10 


that    to   the    dealers   can   be  very  readily  seen.        3very   sheet 

that    tends  to   represent   the    cost    of   the    assertihling    or  de- 

liverins   of   a  quart    of  r'lilk  that    is  produced  Toefore   this 

C oTTuni s si  on   is   evidence,    has    some   hearinp;    on   the   price   which 

you  make.        It    is    entirely  proper,    if   you   ass\»ne  that    the 

Kood  Gonpany  has   followed  the   requirements    of   the  methods 

you  have    sue;frested,    that   you    should  in   the   first    instance 

give    as  much  vieip-Jit    to   the  Mood  accounts   as  you   would  to    the 

'^-'hiting   accounts    or  anybody's   else.        Eut ,    in  view  of  the 

fact   that    they,  have   not    complied  with  this    accounting  method, 

there    is    no   possible   way  to   check   the   thing    up   and   detect   an 

actual  mistake,    if    one   v;a8  made.      So   I    ask  the    Commission  to 

riile ,    before   these   figures   are   dicussed   or  before   they  are 

received   in  evidence,    that    all   the    com.panies   comply  with  the 

requirements   of  the    Commission.        I   will   call  your  attention 

to   page  2   of   the   Pook  of  Revelations: 

be   kept 

"The  distributor's   records   shslL^with   sufficient 
particularity   to   show  fully  the  facts  pertaining  to 
all   entries  made   in  the    accounts  provided  herein. 
If  the   full  information   is   not    recorded  in  the   general 
books,    the    entries  therein   shall  be    supported  by 
other   records   in   wliich  the    full  details   shall  be 
shown.        "^he  general  book  entries   shall  contain  suf- 
ficient   reference    in   detail   records   to   perm.it    ready 
identification,    and  the   detail   records    shall  be 
filed    in   such  manner   as  to   be  readily  accessible  for 
examination   b.3^   representatives   of   the   re)?ional  railk 
corn-mission.  " 


-Tse'sr 


icrsni 


'11 


u.o^  j'sn   iSiiJ" 


i{:^ 


«uo  e-^a; 


li/o^:  -fi^s^ 


.  a-lJiiit^', 


..  '0'.    be  - 
+  orf  j-    . '      '  : --■         ■  -,  •      .   • 

xittv-    b^xlqraoZ}    to  ■    r^v.d  x^:{*    ■■SBf.J   c?"Ojs"^ 

:b\-:.    -   ....  'tc   jTov  ....    ..    ';?Ti£q;   >.^j 


'   biwJivo'-'i  f   •'■: 

■-iivp'o    Bb'ioo^':    .;  '    ^n"  r)'^?:    ^^■'oJ: 


,  -.twU.!  . 


'^.j  j.<; 


11 

I   read    into   that    that    those   records,    of    course, 
should  be   accessible  to   examination  in  everything   except 
the   particulars   of   the   investment    accounts,    which  was   an 
independent   nilinjo;    of   the    Commission,    to   the    representatives 
cf  the    other   companies.        I   feel  that    this    is    simply  a  mistake. 
I   cannot   tell   in   regard  to   that    until  the   detail  figuring 
and  the    second   sheet   are  produced.  I   ask  tha.t   the   Com- 

mission  rule   that    these   accounts,    before    they   are   received 
in  evidence,    conform   with  the   requirements   of  the   Commission's 
order   and  that   the    com.panies  be   ordered  so  to   ad^iust   their 
accounts   and  file   them,    whereupon    each  company  may  have   ac- 
cess to  those   accounts   and  may  then  make   a  definite   suggestion 
in  regard  to   the  matter    if   any  error    or    any  discrimination 
appears    in  them.  That   is   the    only  practical   way   in   which 

we   can   get    at   the  matter.        This  sugp-estad   system   seems   to 
be   all  right.        You  may  have   to  make    some   m.od  if  ications   in 
the    interest    of    sim.plicity.      But   this    is   the   first   time    it 
has  been   us-^d,    and,    understand,    we   have   gone   to   tremendous 
expense   and   work  to  make    an  account    consistent    with  the    re- 
quirements   of   the   Commission.        "^''e   have  had   at   least   one    of 
Scovell  c:  Wellington's  men,    and   sometimes  two,    at    each 
plant    for   several   v;eeks.      \''e   have   been   handicapped,    because 
■'Cr.    Gushing,    who  had   charge   cf   this,    was  drafted,    v;as  about 
to   be   sent   to   camp,    and  had  made    all  his   preparations  to   go, 
being    obliged  to    stop  the   work   which  he   had  started,    where- 
upon  the    Vellington  firm   took  it   up.        Then  the    armistice 
was   signed  and  '"r.    Cushinc  was   sent   back,    to   be  met    with   the 
influenza,    from  which  he   and   his  family  suffered.      "o   we 


fcoioc: 


■  ."*./%  ^^  ' 


*<'■:-!■    c,  r, 


us    !:.•.    "ii- 


■.  t    ;:fi 


^ i:    .,'-.■■■■;    CT^iO    ■' 


■-I    :5-s    i)^^: 


^rf£ 


^-''    ,Ii'^'^::i^-~.6. 


-  05^ 


:;■"  •-  ijt  *i.i     c  ;-..■••> 


■Qi:    "■■:, 


v  :-i!^  E 


■  i:   --  -r       C,  -- 


12 

have   had  tremendous    difficulty  and  have   jjone   to    great    ex- 
pense  to   e-et    these   definite,    allocated  figures  hefore   this 
Commission,        It  means  a  lot   to   us.        If  we   were   to   leave  the 
matter   to   stand   as   it    is,    it  :mie'ht    well  "be    arp-ued  hy  you   that, 
if   we    did  not   attack  those  fi/rures,    in  the    interest    of   the   puh- 
lie   you   would  have   a  ris^ht    to  "base  your   figr'ares   on  the    cost 
of  the   lov/er   firm,    under   this    system. 

Chairman    ^LIJ^'' .      I    think   it    is   quite    clear   to   the 
Commission . 

Mr   -CilSICE.      Yer-y  good. 

Chairman  ALmTT,        Te   would  like  to   hear  from  "r. 
Sears.      I  understand  that  '''r.    Cusick   has   raised  the    question 
of   one  sheet   not   having  "been  filed   with  the   Commission,    a 
sheet    comparahle   with  others   that    have   he  en   filed.        Win  you 
he   ahle   to  file   that   Yery  soon,   '"r.    Sears? 

^Hr.   SEAjiS.        Fr.   T'illett    says  he    will  he  ahle   to  file 
that  . 

Mr.  MILLETT,        It  will  mean  a  duplication   of  work.      I 
will  get    it    cut    as   soon   as   I   can.      It   will  he    a  few  days. 

T'-j..    SSAES.      Mr.   ^''illett    says   he    will  have   it    in   a  few 
da3''s,   '''^r.    Chairman.  I   want   to   say,    in  regard  to   these 

figures,    that   the   position   of   the  "'liiting   Company  is    a   little 
different   from  that    of  li.   ?.   Hood   "^    ^ons,    in   this  respect, 
that    the    suhcoramittee  who   had  the    question   of   accounting   in 
charge   employed  a  firm    of   accountants  who  had  heen  working 
upon   and  preparing  the   figures   of  the   Whiting  hooks   ever 
since   this   Commission  was    started.        ?o    it    has  heen   a   simpler 
matter   for  these   same  accountants  to   prepare   the  figures   on 
the   lines   upon  which  they  wanted  to   have   the    information 


•■t     -iSfl 


."£   ^tizni 


'  X  I'"-' 


:iO'?  i^d  rrx- 


;'■»  rX.r 


^rf    {. 


'XT'-:    ifl 


A  X- 


B     » X 


"^ns  r 


-  q  c,  ;^  'i    8  X  •■'  J"    -!  i'     ,  ?;  r*  0 


!''';C"'/'     riri^d"    b'^S:-     oriVf    f!'.!''' 


.■*^  fc  "S   ' 


il  B   .b''- 


13 

than    it   has  been  for  ^"r .   "^illett,    who  has  been   his    own   ac- 
countant,  with  the   regular    office  force.        ^"r.   ^'^illett   feels 
very   sorry  that    he   has  not    been   able   to  have   those   figures 
here   to-day,    but    he   will  have  thein  here    as   soon  as  possible. 
I   do   not   know  anything   about    the    difference    in  costs  between 
the   lil'Mting   Companies  and  the    *lden   Conpany,    and  H,   P.   Hood 
*:   Sons.        I  presume  there   will  be   some   difference   in  their 
costs. 

Mr.    CUSICK.        Surely  there   will,   but   not   that    dif- 
ference . 

■"^r.    SE.ARS.        I   would  be   surprised  if  there   were  not 
a  difference  . 

^'r.    CUSICK.      '^'r.    Chairman,    .just    in   order  to  place 
the   ■'ATiiting   Company  in  a  proper  position  in  connection   with 
what  "r.    Sears  h^s  said  as  to  the    employment    of   Scovell  & 
^'/ellington,    as   I   understand  it,    and  I  know  it    is  true, 
finally,    before   this  present    system  was   adopted  bj--  the    Com- 
mission all  the   accountants  got    together  --  V^r.  Millett, 
representing   the    '^ood  Company,   ''r.    P.imbach,    representing  the 
Alden   Company,    and  ^^^r .Raymond,    representing   the   V'Mting 
Companies.        They  had   opportunities  to   sro    into,    and  did  as 
a  matter    of   fact   go   into,    this    entire   system,    and  I   under- 
stood that    it   was   entirely  agreed  to  before   it    was  presented 
to   the   Commission  the   last   time.        Fow,    whether  the   Commission 
changed  any  of    it    or  not,    I    am  not    informed;   but    all  these 
men  had  an  equal   opport,unity  to  understand  this    system.      The 
only  difference   between   the   '"hiting   Company       and   the    others 
is  that   from  the   start,   the   V/hiting  Company,        as  a  matter 
of  business  policy,    has  considered  that   it    was  wise  to   have 


■\&i.jjaii'i 


Off    ..t.f.rd'    ,J,Xi:W    t^-i'ij'.t   Y.-f-'- 


etsvt^   s'ir^rid-   ix   jyPSfXixnxjE    c^:'    bI^■o"^ 


■'IP' 


a.t«oo 


,  ooneisT: 


'"'■V  J:.lot?.'^ff9C   f"'. 


,  "5 


•  X .. 


^.■••vO.e'i'pi"''    ,'t'"    5-  ■;.:'')   DOC  .;: Jnftsa'iqsT 


lif's;    ,rv-s'j$f..^   t ~i.;t/"i";    '=' f  ' ■^ 


■f-'-..:- 


(    :.fi   to    :tx    lo   ^:. 

,-r;;'ri    Jt5-.o?;    rf.    hsr"    r  "^'■ 
■^-;.t0;f    DC-         '  '^ ;  ■ 


14 

its  ■bookkeeping  reformed   consistently  with  this   classifica- 
tion,  "because   they  think  it    is   a   t^ood  thinp;,    and  we   have 
"been  attempting  to  do   that.      That   is   the  only  difference, 
so   far  as  T   know,    "between   the   different    concerns.  We  have 

not   completed  that    classification   of   our  hooks,    and  it    will 
he   some   time  before   we   do    so.        V^e  have   to   pick   out   from 
different   accounts,    the    same   as   the    others  do,      at   this  time . 

Chairman  ALLE>^.      I   understand  that   there   has  been 
no   objection  from  the  Hood  Company  to   following  the   uniform 
system   of   accounting   suggested? 

Mr.    SEARS,      Mr.    Chairman,    there   is   this    ob.iection,    -- 
that    is,    there   has  been  this  misunderstanding:,       Mr.    Cusick 
says   there  was   a  meeting   of  the   accountants.      I    suppose  he 
refers   to   a  meeting   with  the    subcommittee,    at    which  the   ac- 
countanis  were  present,    where  a  report    of   Scovell  fc  '^velling- 
ton  Company  was   gone    over? 

Mr.    CUSICK.        Ko,    I   did  not  mean   that.        They  had 
meetinp-s   at  my  office,    day  after   da,y,    ^o^oing   throuch  the    whole 
thing,    and  agreed  upon   conditions.        I   think  they  must   have 
had  meetings  half   a  dozen  times.        Isn't  that    right,    '"r. 
Raymond? 

Mr.   RAYI'^OTvT).        That   is   about    right,    yes. 

Mr.    SEAKS,      \^ell,    wherever   there   was  a  meeting,    I 
understand  that    there   was   a   certain   agreement,    and  that   the 
second  sheet    sent    out   by  the   subcommittee,    according  to  '"r . 
I''illett's  recollection,    was  not    in  accordance   with  what   the 
accountants   agreed  upon.        I    speak   of  this   not   because   H,   P. 
Hood  &   Sons   are  unwilling   to  furnish  the    information  as  the 


Xffi'lj' 


5  s  ■>  n& "i  9  'i*x i:  fi  ''■*Inc 


v^njij 


^^«    ,s:ioo^r  tro   to   rToi•^^i:'ij:a^^i:x.. 


nei^ 


.  Oft    oJr? .  &v? 


.to    smof!    ecf 


9  f  I  .t   ?^  '"f  is"/  c  1 .1  o  1  o  >t 


■  J  y.s   .     . 


eBociqfjt 


yi'ix.l  £q' 


:rA-:    .-1 


j-  ,tSY8 


ot    ••3i^"Si-ri 


^rf.cc^    ('■ 


■  ■  --■  ( - 


-jX  -i 


•.rv  j"h  •^r:-^.;;?,        J,;-:  •♦  ^xv-.-r 


■>sl.root'!.    •: '  J-teXIx' 


: 'vW     '■ 


boo- 


15 

Commission   wants   it,    but    simply  as  "bearing   upon  ^'^r.    Cusick's 
statement   that    it   was  all   agreed  to,    exactly  what   they 
would  do,    and  that   they  knew  in  advance    exactly  what    was  to 
he   done. 

Chairman  ALLE'^^.      I   think   it    is  unnecessary  to   p:o 
farther   with  that,    if  your   company  can  furnish  the   figures 
within  three    or  four  days,    as  ■"r.  ^Ullett    says   he   thinks  he 
can  do . 

T'Tr.  ■'aLLlTT.        Just   as    soon  as  possihla. 

■""r.    !^EARS.      He   says  that    he   will  do    so  just   as   soon 
as   it    can  he   done. 

Chairman    «lLL®t.        What    date   will  that  mean? 

^'^r,    '"^ILLETT.        I   am   sorry  to    say  that    I   cannot    say, 
exactly.      I   wish  I    could.        I   woke   up  to   the   fact   that   this 
second   sheet   was   somewhat    different  from   the   first   one. 
It  m.eans   in   our   case   duplication,    troinp'   through  our   entire 
records  from  the    /?round  up.      It    took  us  two    weeks  to   ^et   up 
thefirst.        I   don't   think  this   would  take  two   weeks,    hut  may- 
he  a  week. 

Chairman  ALIW^ ,    It  m.ay  he  heside   the   point,    "bxxt    why 
didn't   you  work   out   the   two   sheets  to!?ether? 

Hr.   '^TLLETT.        As   a  matter    of   fact,    I   was   slow 
in  the  matter,    I   ffuess,   '''r,    Chairman.      It   was  a  poor  .joh 
on  mj'"  part . 

Chairman  ALLSI^".        Well,    v;e    will  forgive  you  that    if 
you  finally  p-et    it    ri<?ht . 

■'■r.   T-'ILLETT,        I   feel   the   thin:^^   very  keenly,   "r. 
Chairman .  -       ■ 

Chairman  AJ.LEt:",         i    suppose   there   is  no   chance   for 


l.tOjSXt'      , 


■-f:     :.."       ;■::-•-■-  --y     Si      ^'-l 


.■:Br<ocf  BB    (TO OS 


'BB     J  O  ■ 


j-s-s 


-'    f-Uj.:   tfu^y:':    ei.rt 


,•;•«.     -t  t 


fro. '5 


4-        +,-  j- . 


-■^     ^  ' ' ,.'     ' '  '*.  ■'-  ■■' 


of,   tc:cT    ~   aftT^    .1-''       ,ns' 


+  r'o    U'^ox.    f/oy. 


;rc^^    «iVi-n":.o1:    IIi^^     e^--"     ^il'^ 


0. 


Q. 


Q. 


16 

furthar  discussion  of  the  T»iat.ter  at  this  tirne  . 

Com.  PIED.   I  think  there  is,  ■'!'r.  Chairman. 

Chairman  jMLE^v,   The  Comm.is  si  oners  have  some  ques- 
tions they  would  like  to  ask.   '''r.  ^'^illett,  will  you  please 
take  the  stand'' 

H^T^RY  Q,.  ^"^LLIilTT,  Sworn. 


[By  Com.    Bird]        ^-r .  '''allett,    in   the    sheet   that    you   suhmit 
to   the   Commission   on   the    cost      per   quart   you  s-ive   as  the 
averap-e   sellin;?   price   on  family  milk    .14715?      A.   Yes. 
Just   how   did  you   arrive    at   that,    when   the   Commission's  price 
is  15   cents?      A.    Our  sales   include   sales   in  markets   out- 
side   of  3^oston.      In  two    or  three   of   those  the   selline-   price 
in   the  month    of    Septemher    was  lower   than  the   loston   price, 
and,    therefore,    our  averafre   selling   price   was   a  trifle 
I  lower  than  the   Boston    sellinp-   price.        The   actual   fip-ure   I 
can    p-et   for  you. 
Q,     I  [By  Mr.    Cusick]         This    is   only  for  the   Boston  market? 
I   cannot   untangle  those,    offhand. 

[By  Com.    Bird]  '■;  ■    .      I    notice   thmt    under   your  assemhlins- 

costs  you   do  not    enter  any  laboratory  expense.      A.    I   he;^ 
pardon.    It    is  under  the   head   of   buying,    inspecting  and 
laboratory. 

Then,    that    is  under   the    country  charge?        You  cl-iarge   all  the 
laboratory  to  the    country  end   of   the  business?      A,   We    do. 
The  book   of   revelations,    as  ''r.   Cusick   calls   it,    provides 
that   the    laboratory  expense  may  be   distributed   in  accordance 


■blidi    X 


.  fT'JC; 


-.'iJ   ''&   f^vl"^:  .ri..v   '.j-isac    ' 


C  "I  i. 


^d-^M.    ^I 


■-iljee    s^5£riOv> 


to    ^ 


^)   'C 


**  i-   N  .^.    %    •<- 


r.    ■>■  ■'-  r  .-  -,    -t'lyr  , 


;;of' 


.  fj  r-rJSj-.-lr  C 


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"i  -r^  ■'J^*^     >■'  ^   *  r-- 


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X.0     jit} 


17 

with   the   ideas  of   the    indiTidual  dealer.        V.e   char^re   all   of 
ours   into   the   country,    and  you   'aIII  notice   that    we   carry 
none    of   that    item  under  the   head  of   city   expense. 

Q,        I   noticed  that,    and  wondered  whether    it   was   an   omission    or 

whether    it   meant   that    the    country  end   of   the  husinesB  "bore   all 
the   laboratory  expense.        A.   Broadly  spealcine,    we  have  looked 
at   the    laboratory   exj-jense    in   that   way,    and  have    so   treated   it, 
as   a  country  expense.      That    is  the   result    of   our   experience 
and   judc-ment  . 

Q,        I   notice    that    under    the    city  expense   there   is   no    charge   for 
short as-e  at   all.        A,   \7e  keep  no   such   account.      That    is  pro- 
vided for   in  the   "booir,    also. 

Q,       Don't   you  have   any  shorta^-e    in   connection   with  drivers,    and 
so   forth*?      A.    '''hat ever   loss  we  make    in  that   way,    if   it    is   a 
shortaR-e   of  milk,    we    include   in   our   shrinkage  figures.        It 
appears  there   or  under     had  debts,    with  us,    appears   in    one 
place   or   the    other.        That,    I   think,    is   alsc    in   accordance 
with  the   provisions. 

Q       Then,    you  have    an    item  here   of  miscellaneous   ex-pense,    under 
city   experise.  A,   Yes,    sir. 

0.     Y.'e   will  have    to   fro   hack   to   the   hook   of   revelations,    ar-ain? 

A       Yes,    sir. 

Q,       And  I   would   refer   you  to   the    second  page,    which  says:       "Any 
expenses  not    covered  by  the    followini?   items    shall  he    included 
under  Miscellaneous,    hut    a   statement    shall   accompany  the   re- 
port  givinp:   in   detail   all   items    incltided   therein."        A.    So 
it    should,       :■. 

Q,       Will  you   f^ive   'is   that    statement?      A.    I   will  o-ire   you   that 

statement    when    I  make   the   report.        It    will  he   a   small   item.. 


•Sq-JC-S 


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IB 

There   are    some    items  li^<:e    car   fares   and  telephone   charges, 
that    do   not    seem  to   "be   provided   for    otherwise. 

Q        Under  your    "Loss  from  had  dehts,"   which  also   hears  part    of 
your   shortan-e,    I   notice   that    the    only  had  de"Hts  you  have 
at    all  are    on   the   family  trade.        Are   there  no  had  dehts 
in   connection  with,  stores,    hotels,    and  restaurants?        Are 
they  all    crood  pay?        A.   Well,    they  are   not    ^necessarily  all 
^ood   pay,   hut   we  maTce    a  very   sm.all  loss,    so    sm.all   that    it 
would  take  lower   decimal  fir^ures  than   there   are  here   to 
show  it . 

Q,  The  reason  why  I  speak  of  it  is  that  I  notice  the  other 
dealers  all  have  had  dehts  for  the  different  classes  of 
trade,    and   I   thoue-ht   that   perhaps   you  were    exceptionally 

fortunate.      A.   Tell,    perhaps  we   are.  -  .-^   ■--..- 

Chairman    ALLE^J,      Any   other    qiiestions?   .■■ 
'  [Fo   response.]  .......  ^     ,  , 

0,        [By  Chairman  Allen]  Mr.   Millett,    car    you  give   us   the 

date   when   you    can  make   this   return?      We   have   to   pla.n    to 
have   another  meeting    of  the   Commission,      ^'-h^at    is   the   date 
when   you  will  have   your  figures    in?        A,    When    did  you  want 
to  m_eet? 

Q,       ¥/e    want   to  meet   hefore  the    first    of   Decemher.  A,    Well, 

I   am  in  hopes   of  heinr    ahle  to  get   the   thing   out    in   a  few 
days,    working   Saturday  afternoon,    Sunday,    and  so   forth,    hut 
I  would  dislike   to  m^ake   a  prom.ise   I    couldn't   keep. 

Q,       Will  you  have    it    the  IJ'riday  after   Thanksgiving?      A.   Yes. 

Q,        Surely?      A.   Yes;    prohahly  hefore. 

Mr.    CUSICK.        I  would  like   to    call  attention   to    a 
statement   made  hy  ''"r,   ""'1'illett',    and  perhaps   we    ought   to   hf^ve 


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19 


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the    same  understood  here   now.        I   understand  that    this   cost 
accoimtinfT   required  "by  the  ComTnission   refers    only  to   that 
section,    Boston,    for    which  you   are   row  malcinp-  the   prices. 
I   would   siTiiply  liTce   to    say  that    if  ^^r.   ^"illett    h^s    included 
his    sales   all  over   '^■''ew  Hampshire   and  everywhere   else   out- 
side   of   this   section,    no   other    concern    is    doini?  that,      So 
that    had  hetter   he    straip^htened  rip-ht    out.        I   understand 
that    yon  cannot   p-et    coiT^parahle   costs   upon  which  to   "base 
price   fixing   here,    the  Boston   prices,    if   there  are   rroii^r-   to 
he   put    in   expenses   in  Portsmouth,   '"^ew  Hampshire,    and   at 
other   i^oints   in   '^^ew  -HaTnpshire   where   the   Hood  concern    is 
doinjt  husiness.      I    do   not    care,    hut    I    am  only   callinr   to 
your  attention,    fentlerren,    the   fact    that    the   figures,    in 
order   to   he    of   any  benefit    at    all,    should  he   comparahle. 
We  have   only  fissured  our  business  under  the  Boston   prices, 
and,    of   course,    if   another   concern  fisrures   differently, 
that    will  make    a  difference.      The   understanding   here,    as   I 
understood   it,    was  that    this    cost    sheet    should  relate    only 
to   the  Boston  prices  and   to   the    cities  and  towns   covered  by 
the   price   fixinrr    in   i^-reater  Boston. 

[By  Com.   Bird!        '^r.   ^'^illett,    is   this   applicable  also   to 
your   cost   for   distribution?      A.   Yes. 

Is   your   cost   for   distribution  for  these    other   cities   lower 
than   it.    is    in  Boston?      A.    It    is   a  very  little   lower,    yes. 
That   would   h^ve   a  tendency,    then,    to    reduce   yovr   costs  for 
distribution?      A.    To    some   slight    extent,    yes. 
[By  Chairman   Allen]        ''"'ow,    '"^r.   '^''illett,    can   you    reduce  your 
fip:i;j-es   to  Boston?      A.    I   don't    think  I   can,    ^'r.    Chairman. 


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20 


The  'business    is   handled    as   a  whole,    in  rnany  vv'ays.      As   a 
practical  matter,    I   don't   Vnow  how  to   disentangle   that 
"business   ir   the    outside    cities. 

Well,    what   the    Commissior^   has     had   in  nind,    what    it    wanted, 
you  know,    was  ?oston  figrures?      A.    I    don't    suppose    I    ever 
gave    it    any  particular   thought,    in    that    respect,    that   that 
'yas   what    you   wanted,    and   I   don't   know  how  to    get    at    it. 
It   may  he   the    Commission's   fa^;.lt   that   the    thing    was  not 
definitely  understood,    hut    I    still  think  those    ar°   the 
figi.ires  we    shoi'ld  have.      A.    I   shall   not    put   the    responsi- 
hility   on  the    Conmissior   for   not    so    statin-r    it.      The  m^is- 
understanding   was  undouhtedly  on  rny  part.      Put    I   don't   know 
jiow  to   e-et    at    i+ ,    don't   know  how  to    disentangle  many  items 
of   our   expense   accounts   from  the   Poston  husiness.  There- 

fore,   as    I    think  I   have    stated   at    different   times,    this 
covers    our   whole  ^ilk   distrihutino-   husiness.  -    . 

Couldn't   you  rive    us   the   cost    of    distrihutin??   in   other 
places,    so  that   from,  thst   we    could  arrive    st    som^e   firure 
for  Soston?      A.    I    could,  prohahly  m.ake   a    n-eneral   statem.ent, 
hut    I    don't   know  how  definitely  the    statem.ent   I    could   file 
would   cover   that.        I   would   state    irenerally  that   prohahlj- 
the    cost    of   distrihution   in  the    other    cities   vdll  B,vera.f^e 
a   quarter    of   a   cent    less  than    in  Boston.   -.     • 
You  do   ■"ot    keep  a   separate   profi-*"    and   loss  statem.ent   for 
Worcester,    for   instance,    or  whatever   the    city  m^ay  he? 
Only  partially  so. 

Comm..   E. yc; PM-L ,        Of    course,    this    statement    is    worth- 
less for   any   comparative   purposes   as  made   up,    ertireljr 
worthless,    when    compared  with  the    statem.e^^ts   of  people   w!io 


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21 


are  makincr    statements    on    other    lines. 

'Tr,    CIJSIO'.        We   are   willing   to    have   '^"'orcester    in- 
cluded.     That   is    all   rirht ,    if   you  wish,    so   as  to    have 
the   thinp-    on   all   fours.      But    outside    of   the    state  we 
couldn't    do   it. 

^Tr.   ^^LLETT.      Worcester? 

Mr.    CUSICK.        Yes.        You  menti  oned   -'orcester  , 
or   it    has  heen  mentioned. 

^"r.   "'TILLETT.      I    recopnize   the    situation,    hut    the 
fact    is    that    we   are    doing  husiness   in   these    other   jjlaces, 
and   it    is    eiII   one   husiness. 

Chairman  .AT^LE^''.         I    don't    see  how  v/e   can   use   those 
fiiTMres   for    settling   Eoston  prices   at    all,    as   conparahle 
witli    the    other    sheets    suhmitted  hy  the    other   distrihutors, 
who   have    confined  themselves   ahsolutely  to   "'Boston    delivery. 

Hr.   ^'^ILLETT.        I   presume   that,    is   so,    ""r.    Chairman. 
It    is   a   situation  v/hich,    I    am   sorry  to    say,    I   don't    see 
how  v/e   can   help,    because   v/e    are   doinp;  husiness    in   those 
places.      \''e    are   huyinp-  milk   in   lum.p ,    if   }/ou  please,    and 
many   of    our   records  kept   in   our  Boston    office    shov/  the 
business  as   a  whole.  .•••.._ 

Chairman    AJ,le^t.         Isn't   that    also   true    of   the 
If^iting   Company,    that   they  are    doing  business   in   a   number 
of  places?  ,     ■.  ..      . 

'^'r.   ^'^ILLETT.      I    cannot    say  how  true   it    is    of   the 
Whitinp;   Com.pany.     •  -     .      ■ 

Chairm-an    ALLET^.        They  m.ust    >iave    segregated  their 
figures    in    some   wa;/". 

Mr.    SE.AP.S .        Aren't    there   "'"ore  ester    unices    in    the 


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fif^^ures   as   su"bmitted.  loy  yo^xr    client,   ^'r.    Cusiclc,    put    in  here 
as  Boston  firures? 

T'Tr.    CUSICLC,        The  Worcester  prices    are   weighted,    in 
some  way,    and  there   are   no   definite    sheets   to    shov;   it.      But 
take    cjr   signer   "business,    for    instance,    in  ^"antasket    and   other 
places,    that    is   rot    included   in  the   Boston   prices.        Vie   have 
teen   getting   sixteen    or   seventeen    cents    a  qi.iart ,    where   the 
prices   here  would  he  fifteen    and    sixteen.        That    is  all    eli-n- 
inated  from   our  accountinrr,    hecause    it    could  rot   be   com.parahle 
with  your  Boston   prices.        I   cannot   say  what    t]^ey  have    done, 
as  far   as  '^"orcester    is    concerned,    hut   I   understand  that   they 
have   W9ip;hted   it    in   some   way.        But   all   other  places   have 
heen    fifrured   en  the   theory    set    forth  Yvere   "Hy  the   Corirnission . 
Aside   fron  '^'''orcest  sr ,    we   hiS.ve    no    other   places   except   the   tov/ns 
and   cities    involved  here   in  this  hearing:, 

■'■'^r.    SEAES .      Of    course,    that    makes   the   "^'^hitins   account 
a  good  deal   simpler. 

T.'r,    ClTSICF:.        ■^'^0 .      '"e   have    other   places   that    we   have 
eliminated.  '...'.'' 

^■'r»    FTfiAES.      I   didn't   know  you   had. 

!'.Tr.    CUSICK.        Yes.        For   instance,    we    have   Providence, 
we   have  ^Tantasket,    and  we   have   that   place   outsiae    of    O.uincy, 
that    sum^.er   place,    Hou?rh' s   '^^eck,    where   we   have    some    dozen 
routes,   hut    on   a  different    fip;ure  fro?:i^  wh^tyou  Tuake   here.      As 
a  matter   of  fact,    the    Commission    will  prohally   recall,    in 
regard  to   the   price  made   for  Kouph's  ''eck,    that    v.-e   came  hefore 
the    Coinraission   to   ask   your    consent    on   the    thine:.      Those 
places   we   have   tal<:en    out   and  eliminated  from   cur   cost   account- 
inff    sheet,      "^"^r .    Wellington   perhaps    can    tell  you   ahout    the 


'..f^-      ri  •-/ i:  ■-.; '  ■  ^  "l  '^  .'**r-*5ri       i"' *^  ?!  ."V  f*  *^  "iT  "^  5      *'*■        rr^V:  . 

"-  ■    •■■  ;. '•-■  ■-'■::o    si    -is-ta^oTC ''  s,j    •      •    :- r 

.r^TX'v  PI  Sit   .fi&vIovTfi:    s$  1,1x3 

*  •"  ■  ■  ,v»        r  :ri  ^j  w       -%  /-    -^  — -       f . 

*       -         -  -<■•>*        i-  >  •■'jj      Ji^'V   J...       ,o 


23 


thing,    how  they  do   that,    "better   tlmn    I    can. 

Chairrnan   AI-LS^-'^.      I   think  we   would  all  like   to   know. 
Tha.t   "borders    on   a   school   of   accounting. 

^'r.    C'ISICK.      He    is   a  good  teacher,    I    p-uess. 

Chairman  ALIE?^.      I    don't    douht    it.        But   the   fact 
remains   that    these  figures   and   the   figures  ■'■'''r.   ?'^illett   was 
going   home   to    work   on,    ^len   he   got    them  all  done,    wo'ild   not 
be    worth  anything-   to   this   Com^mission  from  the    comparative 
standpoint .  ::■•,•..■ 

^^r.    CUSICK.        ^^c.  .-  .  .  .  .       ,     : 

ChairTiian  ALLS^"".      T'^ow,    I   don't   know  that    we    should 
sit   as   a    court    of    ,iudgment   too  much,    tut    it    simply  puts   the 
Commission    in  a  position   of   net   heme-    ahle   to  use    the  Hood 
figures. 

Q,        [5y  Comm.   ^-urdock]         How  much   of   a   joh   m'ould   it   he,    "r.   ^"il- 
lett,    to  ffxake   up   a   set   of   fie-ures   that    could  "be   com.pared 
vath  the   Vhiting  figures?  A.,    I   presume    to   say  that   "r. 

Wellington,    for   instance,    or   some    good  expert    accountant, 
mie:ht   he   ahle  to   do   that.      I   don't   know.        Personally,    v.'ith 
me   it    is  not   a  question   of   how  m.uch   of   a  .1  oh   it    is,    because 
I   am   not    enough   of    an   accoixntant,    no  matter  how  hig    or  lit- 
tle   one    I  may  he,    to   know  how  to    do    it .        I   don't   krow  how 
to   untangle   them   so   as    to  make   a  fair   showing. 

Chairman  ALLS?t.        Then,    perhaps,    it    is   fair  to  assume 
that   Mr.    Sears   could  ansvyer   that.      I   think  you  will   realize, 
Mr.    Saars,    the   burden    is   put    on   the   Hood   Company,    because 
of   not    really  com.plying   with  the   request    of   the   Comm.ission, 
which,    after  raany   sessions,    had   agreed  that    it    could  not    do 
anything   until   it   had  a  uniform   system   of    accounting,    under 


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24 

which  the   figures   of   the    diffarent    concerns   could  be   com- 
pared.       It   puts  the   Hood  Company   in   the   position    of   not 
complyinpr   with  the   request    of   the    GoTnislssion    in  regard  to 
these   fi.o-ures,      I   thi^k,    if   any   question   came    up,    the   Hood 
Company   should    have    said,     "We    cannot    do   this,    cannot    rive 
you   the    figures   as  you  wish  the^."        As   it    is,    somebody  has 
"been   to   a  lot    of    vrork,    and  we   have   not    Pcot    an.ywhere . 

^Tr.    SF.kTS.        All  I    can    say,   Mr.    Chairm.an,    is   that    we 
are  very   sorry  tliis  has   happened.         It    is    a   condition,    how- 
ever,   that    confronts   us,    and   all   I   can    say   is   tliat    if    it    is 
a  possible 


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thing,  with  the  Hood  books,  to  get  these  figure?, they  will  "be 
submitted  to  the  Comraission.   But  I  will  agree  with  you  that 
if  the  fact  that  certain  outside  businesses  —  like  the  busi- 
ness of  Manchester  and  Lawrence  —  are  included  in  these  fig- 
ures so  destroys  their  value  that  they  are  useless  for  pur- 
poses of  comparison,  then,  whatever  consequence  there  is  attach- 
ed to  that  fact  ttie  Hood  Company  has  to  bear,  that  is  all. 
But  I  agree  with  you,  also,  that  there  isn't  any  use  in  Mr. 
Millett  spending  several  days  to  get  up  further  figures  on  this 
same  basis  or  requiring  the  members  of  the  Commission  to  come 
in  again  in  order  to  receive  figures  which  they  now  consider 
of  no  value.   In  a  general  v/ay,  the  voliome  of  business  that 
H.  P.  Kood  &  Sens  does  outside  of  Boston  is  not  great  enough 
to  account  for  the  discrepancy,  the  difference  between  H.  P. 
Hood  &   Sons'  figures  and  the  Whiting  figures,  as  I  believe. 
Isn't  that  true,  Mr.  Millett? 

Mr.  MILLETT.   As  I  say,  it  might  be  a  quarter  of  a  cent 
less  for  the  other  places,  which,  taking  the  v^hole  volume, 
wouldjnake  a  very  small  difference. 

(By  Mr.  Sears.)  Are  there  any  other  places  besides  Lawrence 
and  Manchester  where  you  sell  milk,  outside  of  the  control  of 
this  federal  Regional  Milk  Board-"?    A.  'We   sell  milk  at 
Providence,  but  I  am  not  quite  sure  of  the  status  of  Provi- 
dence.  I  understand  tiiat  the  Comrnission  made  prices  at  Pro- 
vidence, but  I  don't  knO¥/  just  how. 

The  figures  there  are  about  the  same?    A.   It  probably  costs 
as  much  or  more  to  do  business  there  than  in  Boston. 
And  how  large  would  be  th3  total  volume  of  your  Manchester  and 
Lav/rence  business?  --  I  mean,  compared  with  your  whole  business, 
as  shown  on  this  sheet?    A.   Under  ten  per  cent.   I  cannot 


-       .  .  ,  .  *iv7    ,^rri::'.^ 

-..  .  .  —    ssaaeniaud   e.bisox/o  .      .  ■    ^oal  «fU    "ix 

i3"vtij  si   &i;  neypsenoo  *i6\*-  ^nejid-    ^nosi'saqetoo   lo   esacq 

♦  IXb   s.r.    r.?.ri.t    ,'i:seo'  -''3    axifi   Y/rsa-noO  foooH  sMitf    rtCB"?:   :*-prf+    o+   ke 

8J,  setct3.ii  ".terij'iu?;  qu  d-t-'g  oj    a\:©X)  X.ii©vsc!  gnibaeqe    J-jexJ-ii!' 

errT::o    o:r    nox;-: <:J;rr:moO   srii    'ic    aiedaxferi.  srld"   gixi'iiJjpe'i  "so    eieeo'   9r:--'i 

.1  0   ecu^lnv  erlj    ,vfi■.^'   Xs'i<jrt5';  £.  nl        .  ejjXjev  an   Ic 

,■■1    ,H  rceewjC'C:    eonefel Ixi:-   t£ii    t'^onB;je'?:c'X.&  txir   "lol  .tm/ocos   ocf 
,?vixXec!    1   ■::  .    ^so^>j;7C.:   --.axjixiW   s.a:t-   hv-r-         .   •.:.c'i    '  anoS  -i>  ho::-. 

t'..iurXcv    :<10i' v   srio  ■  «--        '    <3€C.::_..  ^   'i8a;?c  ■  : -- 

,  ii^ne-i&'^'ixi;  Xlsms  ■   Q'JL&i- 

.  i. -.  "iVui'.J    cicXix:..  C'C'     3»C£.r.tJ     ii-Mij  C     ^^i'l'Ji    felt' l'i.w     a'lA.        \  ■»    ....         ^   .   ■-      ,.  -  , 

Ji5  ;^.Ii:r?   iXs^    i)V.'      .A  *;b-.£0.&  xXil'  'Xsrjclgs!^'  'Sli,   ^li.\i 

»vvcri   Jsui,,    vvonx  s  * i\oL    i  ^uci    ,e: 

-   -    -I      «A  i-^'r.jiG    errij   j-iiois   e-i:. t    c4~i..;:^il 

:.    :\&._:  ienisijd  .oX   o;t    sioxc  to  rfc.  ■ 

-p..-,-.  •%•■.-';-•      Tie*-      ■;  3-=.1,E.X      vTOCi     i-ViA 

j^      t,  ii-G    'iC'j    ii6.!    "j.f'.nU      «A  ?"  ■^•■-' 


r-i  .'^ 


■^W■' 


26 

say,  exactly. 

Gonrndssioner  RUSSELL.   It  does  not  seem  to  me  that  this 
is  material.   It  appears  evident  that  the  figures  are  not  laade 
up  in  a  comparative  way,  and,  as  we  don't  know  how  the  figures 
are  made  up  for  Manchester  or  some  o Lher  places,  that  does  not 
seem  good  evidence  or  worth  while  talcing  up  the  time  of  the 
Commission  over.   If  one  large  concern  in  Boston  can  make  an 
accounting  which  complies  with  the  wishes  of  the  Oonimlssion, 
it  woiild  seem  as  though  another  concern  can.   I  don't  know  much 
about  the  milk  business,  but  I  am  much  surprised  at  what  has 
developed  here  this  morning. 

Mr.  SEARS.   I  want  to  say  this,  in  reply  to  what  Mr.  Rus- 
sell has  said,  that  this  Commission  must  remember  that  up  to 
the  present  time,  of  the  three  Whiting  conceras,  only  one  of 
the  Whiting  concerns  has  given  any  figures,  and  that  one  of 
the  large  concerns  subject  to  this  agreement  has  never  given 
any  figures  at  all  and  is  not  prepared,  as  I  understand  it, 
at  all  today  to  give  any  figures.  And  yet,  I  have  not  heard 
a  word  of  criticism  of  that  fact. 

Mr.  CUSICK.   I  beg  your  indulgence  for  a  moment,  Mr. 
Chairman.  That  is  not  true. 

Chairman  ALLEH.   I  don't  thini:,  Mr.  Sears,  that  that  is 
a  justification  at  all.   I  think  you  will  allow  the  Commission 
to  deal  with  those  other  situations.   In  viev/  of  what  hasde- 
veloped  here  this  morning,  and  in  view  of  Mr.  Millett's  state- 
ment tiiat  he  does  not  knov,f  hov/  to  do  this,  would  you  be  will- 
ing to  have  the  Commission  appoint  a  certified  accountant  to 
go  in  and  work  with  Mr.  Millett  to  get  out  this  statement? 

Mr.  MILLETT.   It  depends  on  who  it  is  —  not  a  Whiting 
ma.n. 

Chairman  ALLEU.   I  said,  Mr.  Sears,  a  certified  public 


■••'  J  'nob   I      ,ri£o  meoitoo   'SLHi.-tons  rfg.^ort..-''   5,q  cfveea   -blifow  Si 

,   '    n-;  oj    '^Iq?-i   fix    ^BXsii  t    ;i-n£.v   I      » 82AS.S    -';.. 

lo   tnc;    vine    ^3i'i->ofio^:   ?^i-il.:f J:-'"         -  "'    exlj-    iO    torsyl.'    :tne3©'xq   sa^ 

,  .i:ii^^:..\':iAi.^    X    SiJ    ^It. -:>;-. 4 v "iq    jo;..    2.1    i.x'.E   -.Xx'    ;  i^-    ^s-iJo^i"; 

rv   t;X         » ;:r:Ci.;.    ;;jj-*  L^   'je^-^i-^o    eBOjtuci   Hcfxw    .i"BeJ.i   oJ 
;■    re;    clT'f  '  iM  .'ti  .tw  il!'tov;    finA;   n.i;   o:'\ 


accoTontant,  whom  the  Oommiesion  would  select.   I  don't  think 
you  need  to  ask  us  v/hether  we  will  select  one  of  the  other  com- 
panies' accountants.   I  think  you  woxild  pay  us  the  compliment  of 
feeling  that  we  would  select  an  accountant  who  would  be  satis- 
factory. 

Mr.  SEARS.   I  don*t  see  any  objection  at  all  -to  that,  Mr. 
Chairman.  Do  you,  Mr.  Hood?    (Mr.  Hood  did  not. ) 

Chairman  ALLEN.   Will  you  agree  to  that? 

Iflr.  SEAPS.   Yes,  certainly,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Ousick.   I  wovild  crave  the  indulgence  of  the  Commission 
for  a  moment,  Mr.  Chairman,  because  I  don't  want  my  clients  mis- 
represented in  this  matter.   In  the  first  accountings  we  had 
here,  with  the  consent  of  the  Commission,  D.  Whiting  &   Sons  were 
taken  as  typical  of  the  three  concerns,  and  you  have  in  your 
possession  the  exact  accounting  provided  for  by  the  Commission 
froHi  the  first  day  you  niet  up  to  the  present  time,  in  the  manner 
and  loethod  requested  by  the  Commission.   It  wais  assented  to  by 
the  Commission  that  D.  Whiting  &   Sons  was  typical,  and  they  per- 
mitted us  to  do  that.   These  accounts  are  the  consolidated  ac- 
counts of  the  three  concerns;  and,  in  addition,  you  have  the 
working  papers  of  each  concern,  as  arranged  with  the  Commission. 
So  it  is  not  fair,  Mr.  Sears,  to  talk  about  the  failure  of  the 
Wlaiting  Company  in  this  matter,  ox-  to  criticise  the  Whitings  as 
you  have  done,  because  the  Whiting  Company  has  done  nothing  to  b9 
criticised  for.  -  .-. 

Mr.  SEABS.   I  don't  say  they  have. 

Mr.  CUSICK.  We  have  attempted  now  for  seven  months  to  get 

comparable  figures  here,  and  have  not  been  able  to  do  it. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   I  did  not  ask,  Mr.  Sears,  v/hgther  you 
would  stand  the  burden  of  the  accountant.   T/ie  Commission 
hasn't  any  money  to  spend  on  that,  so  I  will  have  to  ask  you 
if  you  will  consent  to  what  seems  to  be  a  burden  on  the  Hood 


b.Grf  ev,'   asniJnijooos  ^cti^  silo    nl      .'sed-J.^ia   simcf   ni   ja9i'-n&3e'^qf"i 

&'56vY  8no3  ^^  3Ki.t.t£f\?   ,G    <no  j:-' "r-'.^,oC   f..r{;'    'to   iiioanoc   Oiiv    il^iw    ,©'r»d 

-ote   &?:■  c.txiG-.. Doo    -ot    e-!.^   aj-;i/oco.s  GwerfT      .■;■'...-    oij   o^    ^Hf  b^^J^i:.: 
c  -  ij;.i. Cii'^   eiAJ   rrijocffi  :!iX.H;    o:t    ^p/xssS   ^-iiL    .-"iik"!   i&n   ax   J"X    o': 

.  ©V-fjl:       t-^^'  ..--'■''  ■'■■      -^  '  '^'"--    '--'-'      '    •■ 

,'i    ob   oj    ^:I^^.'^    ii*3:ic(   d'Ofi    sv-sr-    t!-';-;^    ^'.xcd   e.  -  .       - 

■";oi  :;•••■  traTiO^'    ^i.^"^        >  r'n.t^^-frujooo;-  ■'  -'b  i?- 


28 

Company? 

Mr.  SEA'RS.   Certainly. 

Chairman  ALLBN.   Thank  you.   Are  there  any  other  questions? 
{1^0   response.)   Then,  the  GOEomission  will  adjourn.   You  will 
be  ready,  Kr*   Pattee,  probably  at  two  o'clock  this  afternoon? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Yes,  sir. 

CHANGE  ON  D.  WHITISTG  CONSOLIDATED  SHEETS. 

Mr.  CUSICK.  Mr.  Chairman,  Mr.  Wellington  wishes  to  call 
attention  to  an  error  in  the  account,  and  have  it  corrected. 

Mr.  WELLINGTON.   There  is  a  difference  of  an  even  thousand 
dollars  in  the  calculation  of  dollars  and  cents  on  the  Con- 
solidated Stateraent.   It  can  be  corrected  on  your  copies  in 
ink  if  you  prefer,  or  can  be  corrected  with  the  type-writer, 
whichever  is  better.   Referring  to  the  Consolidated  Stateraent 
of  whole  milk  operation,  on  the  second  sheet,  the  total  sales 
should  be  |414!r,000  instead  of  $413,000,  and  that  will  change 
the  resulting  net  loss  at  the  bottom  of  the  sheet.   It  changes 
the  loss  from  |230C  to  $1300. 


INCLUSION  OJ'  WORCESTER  gIGURgS  IN  YigjITlNG  ACCOUNT. 

Mr.  CUSICK.  Mr.  Ghainaan,  Mr.  Wellington  states  that  the 
weighted  Worcester  account  is  included  in  the  accounting,  and 
we  will  take  it  out.   I  am  speaking  for  the  ¥/hiting  interests. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   Yes;  and  we  want  Alden*s  second  sheet. 

(The  hearing  was   adjourned    to   2   o'clock  p.m.) 


'^'ii.rctBji  iXxw  K^'^-ir-Sff 


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29 


AgTfiRMOOM  SESSION* 

The  hearing  was  resumed  at  two  o'clock  p.m..  Chairman 
ALIiEN  presiding. 


Chairman  ALLEN,  in  calling  to  order,  said:   Gentlemen, 
the  hearing  v/ill  be  resumed.  Mr.  Pat  tee,  are  you  ready  to  put 
in  your  papers? 

STATSMBUT  BY  MR.  RICHARD  H.  PAT TEE . 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Mr.  Chairman,  last  month  the  Commission 
awarded  priees  at  Jail  River,  Massachusetts,  upon  the  request 
of  the  Producers  and  the  Dealex-s  in  that  narket.  There  have 
been  certain  violations  of  the  findings  and  awards  of  the 
Commission  in  j'all  River,  and  the  men  are  up  here,  men  who 
produce  for  that  market,  ready  to  testify  before  your  Com- 
mission.  They  have  also  brought  \/ith  them  affidavits  from 
others.   They  have  to  return  early  this  afternoon.  Would  it 
be  possible  to  hear  them  now? 

I     Chairman  ALLEN.   In  the  hearings, did  both  parties  agree 
to  abide  by  the  findings  of  the  Commission? 

Mr.  PATTSE.   I  so  understand,  Mr.  Chairman.   0":her  mem- 
bers of  your  Commission  v/ere  present. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   Then,  what  do  you  want  to  bring  before 
the  Commission? 

i     Mr.  PATTEE.   I  want  to"  bring  "before  the  Commission  the 
evidence  of  the  violation  on  the  part  of  dealers  of  the  find- 
ings of  this  Commission,  and  ask  that  the  Commission  xakc  steps 
to  enforce  its  findings. 


«  . . .'. .» 


q  ?ioo.;o*o   e.  ;r.t*^i?->rL  erfT 


2s. ._l_i£J;J..  .: -  T    .kM  Yg  TiaaKiKTATe 

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ST^-OisairiricO   &;;}•   "io   sjrixfcnxl  fcrlJ-    yd   exicjs   o;t 

?no.{:r  ■  ...  t-rfj- 

.    '.'    '10   i'i'-'LBi,b   "io   it&q    erio  .no  nox:tf-loi:v  fcri.:^    I.    .o,  .  ....    :.. 


Chair.nan  ALLEN.   Y/ell?  I  think  the  Gonimission  vjfill  do  that. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   It  is  a  ne¥,'  procedure.   I  don*t  know  just 
i  how  to  present  the  matter,  except  to  present  it  on  the  affida- 
i  vits  of  these  cien  and  the  evidence  oT  the  farmers  who  have  come 

here  to  testify. 
j      Chairman  ALLEN.    The  Commission  intends  to  have  its 
findings  lived  up,  £*nd  if  you  have  the  affidavits  there  I  think 
1;he  Commission  would  like  to  see  them.   I  understand  that  it 
is  a  violation  of  the  decision  of  the  Commission? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Yes,  sir.  Here  are  the  affidavits,  and  I 
don't  suppose  it  is  necessary  to  file  the  findings  of  the 
Commission  or  any  correspondence.  Mr.  G.  A.  Douglass  and  Mr. 
John  Schlegel,  of  Tiverton,  Rhode  island,  are  present,  and, 
if  the  Commission  wishes,  can  state  the  situation  doi'm   in  that 
section.   I  will  call  Mr.  Douglass,  if  the  Committee  wishes. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   All  right. 


GR0\^5  J.  DOUGLASS  --  sworn. 

Q   (By  Mr.  Pattee.)  Your  name  and  address?   A.   Grover  J. 
,  Douglas?  Tiverton,  "Rhode  Island. 

Q  Are  you  a  milk  producer?   A.  Yes,  sir.  .  t 

Q  Where  do  you  sell  the  milk?   A.   Jail  River. 

Q  To  whom?   A.   M.  E.  Davis. 

Q  Will  you  state  to  the  Commission  the  situation  in  respect  to 
Mr.  Davis?   A.   Well,  as  I  ujiderstand  it,  the  Commission  fix 
the  zones  in  the  vicinity  of  Pall  River.   That  is,  the  first 
zone  would  be  20  miles  out,  and  the  representatives  from  the 
locals  around  there  divided  that  first  zone  into  three  zones — 
that  is,  6,  10  and  20  miles,-  and  they  agreed  to  charge  within 
the  first  zona,    6  mil.=  s,  lO  cents  a  quart  and  allow  them  the 


^.'     oo-      o 


*  \1  i-.  Jo  i  u     . . 

2.1  X    vjisil   0-+    3i:>fiectni   nccsaiiTsnioO   eriT         .-  '    asa-'xlKciO 

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rest  for  handling  the  milk;  in  the  second  zone  9-3/4  cents, 
ten  miles  out,  and  from  ten  to  twenty  miles  9-1/2  cents  per 
quart,  at  the  door.   Some  of  the  dealers  came  down   and  paid  the 
price  and  others  refused  to  do  it,  and  we  are  leaving  them  milk. 
Q  Who  refused?   A.  The  names  are  on  the  paper,  the  affidavits. 
Q  Who  are  they,  the  dealers?    A.  The  dealers  are  M.  E.  Davis, 

Peckham-Davis  Company,  0.  Charest  and  Franklin  E.  Brow. 
Q  Wlien  did  these  people  refuse  to  take  your  milk  and  pay  you 

the  price?   A.   T.ast  Sunday  morning.   The  thing  had  been  hang- 
ing fire  and  we  had  been  trying  to  get  them  to  say  they  v/ould 
pay  the  price  a  week  or  two  before  that. 
Q  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  those  same  dealers  are  paying  a 
different  price  than  that  ordered  by  the  Commission  in  other 
sections?    A.   In  Swansea,  Westport  and  Westport  Harbor, 
,  they  are  paying  the  price,  and  in  llorth  Tiverton, 
Q  What,  if  any,  reason  Vi/as  given  to  you  for  not  giving  the  price? 
A  As  I  understand  it,  they  say  they  have  given  us  a  lower  price 

dovm  there  and  will  continue  to  do  so. 
Q  Who  said  that  to  you?    A.   I  didn*t  hear  that  said  to  me. 
That  is  just  what  is  nosed  around  there.   It  is  not  official. 
Chairman  ALLEF.   The  only  thing  that  can  be  put  in  here, 
of  course,  is  a  protest.  We  cannot  have  a  hearing  upon  the 
loatter  at  this  time. 

Mr.  PATTSE,   ITo,  but  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  the 
situation.   I  don't  know  just  how  to  proceed,  except  to  con- 
tinue the  story,  telling  what  the  facts  are. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   We  can  have  the  other  parties  present 
and  can  have  a  hearing,  if  ic  is  necessary.      •     .. 
Mr.  PATTEE.   All  right. 

Comm.  MURDOCK.   Have  you  called  the  attention  of  the  other 
parties  to  the  fact  that  you  were  going  to  bring  it  up? 


.  .-j.tiviifoi  ilB  orlo"    ^'itqj:;q    asij    iiv   s'ta  ci€»cu--n    eiiT      .A        ?i>e£ii.i\. &  i   oriW     p 

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32 

Mr.  PATTEE.   The  other  parties  have  been  notified.   The 

first  appealed  to  the  Secretary  and  he  wrote  to  the  parties 
i 
defining  the  findings.   These  people  will  show  that  the  dealers 

down  there  have  not  complied  with  the  finding  and  are  still 

refusing,  and  I  ask  them  to  present  their  evidence  that  they 

are  still  refusing. 

!      Comm.  MURDOCK.  Yes,  but  have  you  notified  these  dealers 
that  you  were  going  to  bring  this  riaatter  up  here  today,  so 
that  they  could  be  heard? 

i      Mr.  PATTEE.   No,  sir,  not  in  regard  to  having  a  specific 
hearing  on  this  particular  thing. 

Comm.  MURDOOK.   You  just  notified  them  generally  that  you 
would  protest  to  the  Commission? 

'      Mr.  PATTEE.  Yes,  sir.   I  am  not  familiar  with  such  pro- 
cedure and  don't  know  how  to  go  into  court,  to  show  a  reason 
for  going  in. 

I      Comm.  MU?DOCK.   The  first  thing  is  to  let  the  other  fellow 
know  you  are  going  in. 

I      Mr.  PATTEE.   ^JVell,  he  knows  it.   Now,  Mr.  SchJLegel  will 
tell  the  same  story,  to  establish  a  violation  of  the  ruling 
down  there.    If  the  other  parties  want  to  come  iii  later  and 
testify,  all  right.    |s  there  anything  else? 

I      Chairman  ALLEN.   As  I  understand  it,  the  only  thing  we 
can  hear  today  is  a  protest.   You  will  file  these  affidavits 
here,  and,  while  I  cannot  say  what  the  Commission  will  do,  I 
feel  that  the  Commission  v/ill  write  to  the  dealers  and  ask 
whether  they  are  living  up  to  the  agreement  entered  into.   If 
it  appears  that  they  are  not  living  up  to  -che  agreement,  the 
decision  that  v;as  made  at  that  time,  we  will  so  notify  them, 
and  that  may  bring  them  around.    If  not,  we  will  have  a  hear- 
ing and  have  them  here.   Of  course,  the  decision  would  b© 


L  J.  (.  ■ 

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I 


5a 

retroactive. 

Q  j  (By  Comra.  Murdock. )  Mr.  Witness,  what  reason  do  you  say  they 

give  for  not  complying?   A.   No  official  reason,  but  I  have 

heard  it  nosed  around. 

Q  Well,  you  have  talked  with  your  own  distributor?   A.  Yes,  sir. 

i 
Q  What  did  he  say?    A.   He  says  he  is  not  going  to  pay  the  price, 

He  says  they  haven't  paid  tho  price  in  other  zones  around,  and 
that  they  are  not  going  to  now;  haven't  had  any  zones  establish- 
ed there  before . 
Q   (By  Chairma.n  Allen.)   That  zone  was  established  by  the  Com- 
mission?   A.  Yes,  and,  as  I  say,  was  split  up  by  the  execu- 
tives of  the  locals  there  into  three  zones. 
Q  And  that  was  agreed  to  by  the  producers?   A.  Yes. 
Q  Then,  the  dealers  are  not  living  up  to  the  agreement  thatthey 
made  with  the  producers  outside  of  tixe  Oommission?   A.   No. 
Chairman  ALLEN.   You  will  leave  those  affidavits,  will 
you? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Yes,  sir.  .- 

(The  affida.vits  above  referred  to  were  left 
with  the  Commission.) 

W.  P.  DAVIS  —  sworn. 

Q   (By  Chairman  Allen.)  What  is  your  full  name?   A.  W.  P. 
I  Davis,  of  the  New  England  Milk  Producers  Association.   In 
accordance  with  a  request  made  by  the  Commission  at  its  last 
hearing,  or  one  prior  to  that,  a  system  of  farm  accounting  v/as 
taken  up  and  discussed.   The  farm  management  specialists  of 
the  various  states  were  called  together  to  formulate  some  such 
system  as  could  be  put  into  general  use  throughout  ITew  England. 
In  the  meantime,  to  secure  cost  figures  that  conference  of 


.  6  v'.c.rojioicJ'oi 
,  .  .  .      .{naioO  y8^ 

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•.  J  J'  kj . 


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farm  management  men  reconunended  that  the  questionnaire  method 

of  securing  prevailing  prices  of  feed  and  labor  be  continued, 

I 
and  as  a  result  of  that  questionnaires  v/ere  sent  out  this 

month,  as  they  have  been  during  the  previous  two  price-fixing 
periods.   Those  questionnaires  called  for  costs  of  feeds, 
labor,  and  the  amount  of  stock,  and  so  forth,  on  the  farms. 
The  questionnaires  returned  have  been  summarized,  and  the  second 
sheet  of  this  exhibit  shows  you  the  tabulated  costs  of  grain, 
hay,  silage,  green  feed  and  other  dry  roughage,  per  ton,  and 
the  costs  of  labor  by  the  month,  with  board;  by  the  month, 
without  board;  by  the  day,  with  board;  and  by  the  day,  with- 
out board,  in  Maine,  New  Hampshire,  Vermont,  Massachusetts 
and  Connecticut. 
I  (The  paper  referred  to  and  introduced  in  evi- 

dence  by  Mr.  Davis,  comprising  seven  typewritten 
sheets,-  showing  (1)  Average  cost  of  producing  a 
quart  of  milk  for  certain  months  in  Iiilaine,  Naw 
Hampshire,  Vermont,  Mctssachusetts  and  Connecticut; 
(2)  Summary  sheet  of  data  from  milk  producers'  af- 
fidavits, for  said  states;  (3)  Cost  of  milk  production 
for  ITovember,  1918,  in  Connecticut;  (4)  In  New   Hamp- 
shire; (5)  In  Massachusetts;  (6)  In  Vermont;  and 
(7)  In  Maine,-  v/as  marked  "Exhibit  1  of  November  22, 
1918,  E.W.H." ) 

Q   (By  Comm.  Sawyer.)  Will  you  please  tell  us  hOT/many  question- 
naires you  received  back,  and  hov;  many  were  sworn  to  ajid  how 
many  were  not?    A.   300  were  received. 
Q  Prom  all  the  New  England  States?    A.   Yes,  sir, 
Q  For  the  month  of  — -     A.   October;  thatis,  the  report 

covered  tlie  month  of  October. 
I 
Q  Who  many  ^ere   sworn  to?   A.   They  all  had  either  the  affidavit 


.  sirr-jel  .erfS'  ito  ■■!  oa   ibns    »:'i'co:}'3  'lo   tmjows   eriJ-   foris    ,i:oq'bI 

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-dd-xw    <YB.ti   Siicj-   vd  ban    ib^coo  rttx-    ,  .^d    ib'i£.-od  Aisodjiv: 

-XV6    ni   rieouho'iini    'cn&  ot    fce-TiC-  'leqBC   f>f{T  ) 

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J  •    l^  •    ^      *  ._        ^  *..  -i-    ..^ 

-:.     -    vDJiiuvJor^   6u   lie;*    OS.-  .-  -'"      ','::"vvri:C    .    . 

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fit    ,5X:i.C!{J     ;-i::..oc-,l       *?.  _c    :ijn-:.:   ,exi^    -^  g  ' 

.'itdoc^cO   "::o   .  '    hh'i^ 


35 


or  were  sworn  to  before  the  poat  master  or  mail  carrier. 

Q  Are  you  sure  of  that?   A.   I  am  very  sure  of  that,  yes. 

I 
Q   (By  Comm.  Jordan.)   How  many  were   sent  out?   A.   Two  thousand. 

There  wsro  sent  from  our  office  1200,  and  20  each  were  sent 
to  the  J'arm  Bureaus  all  over  New  England.  Plow  many  v/ere  sent 
from  their  offices  I  don't  know.  They  were  requested  to  send 
them  out.   I  imagine  the  majority  of  them  did  reach  the  pro- 
ducers.  Now,  those  feed  and  labor  prices  were  applied  to  the 
Chamber  survey,  and  the  first  sheet  you  have  shows  the  average 
cost  by  states  and  the  weighted  costf'  for  New  England,  the 
weighted  average  costs,  which  appear  as  8.2  cents.   The 
weighted  average  cost  per  5000-pound  cow  is  8.8  cents,-  that  is, 
at  the  country  railroad  station.   Now,  I  thihk  this  system 

hasbeen  discussed  previously,  and,  Linless  there  are  further 

i 
questions,  I  will  just  file  this  as  an  exhibit. 

Q   (By  Oomm.  Sawyer.)  You  are  filing,  then,  as  an  exhibit,  sheets 
1,  2,  3,  4,  5,  6  and  7,  aren't  you?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

(Papers  marked,  as  stated  above,  "Exhibit  1  of 
November  22,  1918." ) 

Q   (By  Comm.  Bird.)  According  to  this,  you  make  the  cost  for 

November  the  same  as  the  cost  for  October?   A.  Yes,  sir.  There 
are  some  slight  changes  by  states,  if  you  compare  the  cost  per 
quart  in  the  last  two  columns,  sho\/ing  costs  there  under  Octo- 
ber and  November.   You  will  see  tne  variation  by  states, that 
has  occurred. 

Q  Taking  the  300  returns  that  you  received,  v/hat  was  the  average 
number  of  cows  owned,  perreturn?   A.   I  didn't  tabulate  the 
number  of  cows.  They  run  all  the  way  from  3  to  80  in  the  herd. 

Q  JDon't  you  think  that  is  quite  an  important  part  of  ti'^is  price 
proposition,  that  the  Commission  should  know  whether  they  are 


J  t     -         T  • 


getting  reports  from  men  ^/ho  have  two  or  three  cows  or  whether 
they  are  getting  the  averages  of  reasonable  herds?   It  seems  to 
me  that  is  a  very  important  question  in  conn3ction  v/ith  your 
report »   A.   I  can  file  that  with  you  later,  this  afternoon 
or  tomorrow  morning. 

Gomm.  BIRD.   I  think  that  ought  to  be  done. 
Gomm.  BEIGHAM.    Yes. 

Q   (By  Gomm.  Sawyer.)   Xr.  Davis,  you  have  based  your  costs  on 
the  Chamber  of  Commerce  methods?   A.   Yes.   At  the  time  — 
I  think  it  was  in  J^-ily  at  the  time  Professor  Boutell  was  em- 
ployed here,-  one  change  was  made  on  depreciation.   It  showed 
a  variation  in  the  Chamber  survey,  and  the  increases  in  the 
cost  of  cov/s  and  so  forth,  seemed  to  7/arrant  a  change  in  that 
depreciation  cost. 

Q  What  have  you  figured  as  depreciation  per  cow  on  that  question- 
naire?  A.   fifteen  per  cent. 

Q  What  v/as  it  before,  in  the  Chamber  survey?   A.   Well,  it 
varied  from  11  to  16,-  something  of  that  kind.   I  believe  in 
the  first  survey,  in  one  of  the  states,  it  seems  to  me  i~,   was 
Massachusetts,  at  the  time  the  sur'/ey  v.as  rra.'i3    there  was  an 
actual  appreciation  instead  of  a  depreciation,  due  to  the 
sharp  advance  in  the  prices  of  animals  as  a  res'ult  of  the 
increase  in  beef  prices.   That  is,  the  year  dated  back  to  1916 
and  1917,  and  the  inventory  value  in  1916  was  less,  had  in- 
creased in  1917,  which  showed  an  appreciation  instead  of  a  de- 
preciation.  Yet,  if  you  took  the  actual  losses  over  a  period 
of  years  as  a  result  of  disease,  loss  of  udders,  and  the  stock 
that  was  sold  from,  the  herd  due  to  old  age  --  that  is,  old  cov.s, 
and  so  forth,-  ycu  would  find  that  you  should  figure  in  deter- 
mining any  costs  of  this  kind  a  depreciation,  that  this  v,-a8 


tioqs*f 


no   s.tsoo  tjjo^^   bosBci   ©vsri  ;/oy    ^S'-  l.Te^wjin    .faixoO  ^8  ■ 

—    Kfiij    o.ci*   vA.      .S9Y      ,/l       Ve^, ...-.- .-.;;  eo-iecirtio?  lo  -^edniBilO   ©.rfcr 

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•IS.   ©'.ice-toni 


.i.'    bi^s^arfx   ^ox.;.=i:oe'is^l^■  fi*i   jcec;c^'r;  xioiriw    ,?iei  xti    &)ea.S9ic 

5;ov  -r'1-t'io'i   oa 


Gj^j.)  i^ 


'  yjice'v^.. 'jX)  .0    or".: 


37 
clearly  a  condition  which  does  not  prevail  if  you  take  it  over 
a  period  of  years,  just  the  same  as  you  vi/ould  figure  a  depre- 
!  ciation  on  any  line  of  business.  Does  that  explain  the  ques- 
tion? 

Q  That  is  all  I  want  at  the  present  time.   Now,  these  prices 
that  you  submit  for  November  from  the  different  states  would 
be  the  price  or  the  cost  of  raising  milk  for  a  year  if  these 
prices  prevailed  throughout  the  year?   A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q  And  you  claim  that  these  prices  here,  or  these  costs,  are  what 
it  costs  to  raise  milk  in  November?    A.   That  has  alw^ays  been 
,  an  open  question  and  one  which  we  v/ere  unable  to  conscientiously 
'  get  costs  on.   They  were  not  available  in  New  England.  Now, 
if  it  is  the  intention  to  reduce  prices  during  the  flush  sea- 
sons, obviously  the  price  should  be  increased  during  this  sea- 
'  son.   If  you  have  —  and  probably  you  have  --  seen  the  Warren 
scale,  it  sho?/s  a  variation  from  7  per  cent  to  120  —  119  per 
cent  for  December,  if  I  remember  it,  120  for  January,  and 
dropping  down  to  70  per  cant  in  Jxine.   That  is  for  the  total 
cost,  the  same  as  we  present  here.   ..  ■ 

Q  That  is  what  I  was  trying  to  get  at  --  November  prices  or 
averages  for  the  year.    A.  Averages  for  the  year,  or  the 
prices  for  feed  and  labor  applied  to  the  quantities  v/hich  were 
average  quantities  fed  during  the  year. 

Q  ITaat  you  claim  is  that  these  costs  are  the  costs  for  produc- 
ing milk  in  the  month  of  November,  or  will  be  the  costs? 

A  No,  I  don't  claim:  that.   This  is  over  the  period  of  the  year 
that  November  costs  apply  to  the  quantity  figures,  but  the 
cost  is  gi'eater  during  the  winter  feeding  period  and  is  less 
during  the  sijramer  feeding  period. 

Q.  You  claim,  then,  that  these  costs  are  too  low  as  submitted  here 
by  you  for  the  month  of  November'    A.   Yes,  sir.   To  what 


ci-iso^i   zeiB:fs   jnst.cYttb   edt  scii  locfnevci^  tc'i  .ixn-di/B  yoy   ^.srL,-* 

d">siiw  e'iB   ^sJ-aoQ   essitr   to    ^sisri  e&oxiq   esexid'    j'fcxid   rn^Blr:   ro" 

T^XsiJOi-cfnsxoanco   o^   cicBnii  etew  ew  iloxriw   er  no.tcJ-sejjp   aeqo  ne 

5  .f^aj^lgn..  nx    eXcfisixBVii   ;ton  eiew   ^erfT      .no  8:^aoo;:  ;i6g. 

-;i63  ifaull  Olid-   ani'tuia   seoi"i.q   ecvufee-r  oJ-  noij  ne:t"n±  «ri*    ax    " '■    ''■:. 

-sea   3Xx1j'   ^nliJb   t-  ■  ai   ed   JolLfOila   &ox'5:q   eiLt   \/X3jjoxvc'o  ., anos 

nij'X'-i&'U  ei-f*   nees  —    svj-uj  uo^  "iXdBcfoiq  baxi-  —   sv.eii  uox  11      .nop 

Toq    ..- ^.  --  CSX  o^   ,tayo  -seq   V  jno'il  nox.-^tx'iiiv  ii  swoxla    >:r i.    ,eXepa 

i>i:?,6    t^'iBijftBT.   'j-ol:    .'  ;X   fix   -seo'msi^je-:!:   I   'li    tT&araectCL  tol  .tnec 

X£;toj£u+   icl  si   cf&fiT        -eiivl.  nx    .j-a'c,c   ■.    ^  o;*-   nwob  2'~t<^'^*fl*3'^'-' 

srLt   'xo    t'li^BY   fin.-5-   '£01-   PifigiiisvA      4A        '  t-taev   bi-.  3*iiev£ 

-;  ^ew  rioxri.v    3exjx;.  .>....  >,  *    boxXqq"£  lOdsX   bnji   beet  -iol   seoi'ta 

-o.-Ji>o-iq  -iol:  3^+300    eztr    ©-iJi  3:^3:  '  -■'    ax  nixsXo   00^ 

■^'sdfaco    ©lir    ecf  XXxvy  -fo    ^'tgc .-.-   'ic  x^:  :i.&   rtx    ^Ilii,  'vrti 

'ii.sv    exio    lo  .boi'ieq   orld'   '-ievo   ci   sir(T      *:!"i3iTj    iaxj..^o    j'nojj    x    ,a;j. 

-.i    5^r;_r-    ;•■(:.:'•(.::'   ':r!±i)£6l   te^'rrxw   eaJ   3r!XT:!-!b  le^t-iJe'i^    sx    c^soc 

..;;•,..-._.  :^.  •  nxbss;;'!  -j:&;'':piu?j    6-lJ    gnxixfj; 
5i-:t:I   ^:-  wci    or.^r    CiiS   b7  ■    -         i^.o    :tiiiii    t"f-."^:'     ^-.iSiLo 


38 

extent  they  are  too  low  I  am  unable  to  give  you  definite  fig- 
ures upon,  but,  as  an  estimate,  I  believe  Professor  Lindsay 
has  recently  taken  up  the  Warren  scale  and  considered,  whether 
or  not  it  ittight  be  applicable  to  ?Tew  England  conditions,  and  it 
is  his  opinion  that  that  scale  is  applicable  to  our  situation 
here,  in  which  case  it  would  increase  this  cost  by  18  or  19 
per  cent,  if  you  arrive  at  the  actual  cost  of  producing  milk 
I  now. 
Q  Now,  as  I  understood  the  use  of  these  milk  costs  of  production, 
arranged  by  the  Chamber,  and  by  the  examples  vdiich  have  been 
given,  the  changes  in  the  prices  of  feed,  such  as  grain  and  hay 
charges,  and  in  the  cost  of  labor,  woiild  be  applied  to  the 

particular  items  in  the  Chambei  survey.-   I  notice  that  on 

explained 
other  costs,  and  you  have  already  aepreciation,  that  you  have 

made  changes,   ffor  instance,  taking  the  State  of  Maine,  you 
made  other  changes  right  straight  through  there.  You  have 
interest,  taxes  and  insurance  per  cow,  $8.11;  bull  service, 
^5.08  in  I'^ovember  as  against  $2.74  in  the  Chamber  survey; 
while  use  of  buildings  is  the  same,  and  so  forth.   A.   On 
taxes,  interest  and  insurance,  that  change  is  explained  by  the 
increase  in  valuation  per  cov/.   That  was  determined  last  month 
to  be  |102,  by  the  questionnaires  reported,  the  average  valu- 
ation placed  by  the  farmer  on  his  cows. 

That  was  you-r  deduction  from  the  questionnaires  in  the  state 
of  Maine,  that  the  valuation  of  a  cow  was$102?   A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Based  on  v/hich  set  of  questionnaires,  which  month?   A.  As  I 
recall  it,  the  October  set. 

Q  You  think  cows  have  appreciated  since  August  or  .July  in  the 
state  of  Maine,  from  any  knowledge  you  have  or  examination  of 
the  questionnaires?    A.   Well,  that  is  the  only  time  that 
question  was  asked,  I  believe,  was  during  that  month.   I 


«  ''■V  "■  ■  • 

.' ".'X  JCi.?i:'0-i<i   10   c:^soo   :AS.iT,   oeea^    'lo   &au  6ri^   Loess's siniu    I   se    , 


:  ij,:'..  i';.'  i  • 


Xi^::jj:.'/  rrx    6a.e3*iC.ax 


i  <?  r-  -^  'V  n  •'"•'*     .' '  ■*■  r  '\  " :         *'•  c;  -f  r  r  r^  rt  a  f  "t  ""^  * 


t  cn-L' 


's«''il£;anox.-5e!jT    eiii 


33 

believe  it  was  asked  for  in  the  August  figures  and  also  in  the 
October  figures. 

Q  Yes.   I  see  it  was  asked  in  the  months  of  July  and  August. 

A  Yes . 

Q  I  wish  you  would  look  up  and  bring  in  here,  if  you  can,  a 

recapit\ilation  of  the  July  and  August  reports  for  the  state  of 
Maine,  and  tell  us  what  you  make  the  value  of  a  cow  to  be  as 
reported  by  the  farmer,  because  I  cannot  find  that  the  cow 
value  at  that  time  is  $102,  as  you  have  stated,  and  I  would 
like  to  have  you  check  me  up,    A.   I  will  do  that. 

Q  And,  of  course,  if  you  are  too  high  or  too  low  on  that  it  will 
change  all  your  other  figures.   I  notice  that  you  have  nmter- 
ially  increased  the  cost  of  haxiling  milk?    A.  Well,  that  is 
on  the  generally  accepted  basis  of  25  cents  a  hundred. 

Q  Who  accepted  that?    A.  Well,  that  is  being  paid  by  the  Hood 
CompaEty,  and,  from  all  the  information  we  can  find,  is  being 
paid  in  the  country  at  the  present  time  -*-  that  is,  outside. 
Is  that  based  on   a  mile  distance,  or  is  it  25  cents  per  hundred 
for  any  distance?    A.  Well,  on  the  average  route  over  which 
milk  is  hauled.   It  will  vary  from  five  to  eight  or  ten  miles. 
An  instance  came  to  my  attention  the  other  day  where  56  cents 
per  hundred  was  being  charged. 

I  know,  but  why  should  you  make  that  change  in  this  Chamber  of 
Commerce  survey  without  calling  our  a.ttention  to  it  before,  when 
we  supposed  that  the  only  changes  v/ere  ongrain,  labor  and  hay? 
This  is  the  first  intimation  vi^e  have  had  that  there  has  been 
any  such  change.  Does  that  change  apply  to  previous  estimates 
of  cost  that  you  have  given  us?  —  that  is,  that  change  in  the 
cost  of  hauling?    A.   That  change  of  price  was  made  at  the 
July  compilation,  whan  Professor  Boutell  had  charge  of  the 
working  out  of  the  figures. 


io   e&sdB   ■  :'~1   acf-foqc  ;    i-     _  'O   noiisLu:' 

Gi;   sd    o;}-   woo   £   In   eulsv  eii^    ayimi  's-jx  ^-srlw   *^i.;   j.lej"   .bi-';:    ,    ;;-i.^M 

,    1   fcinj&    ,  ..  jjov,  e.4i   ,SOi|   ax    ixnio'  ■    +.b   euli^v 

t^Bticf    Ofc   .!.-:-i.       i       ./:  .n;.:    -:        ':■■-.  r    ---v    ©vfi^!.    ■.-      ^ 

.J    no   v/oj.  ^'o^[   '±j.    t63"£vOG  'io   ^un 

-  ..        .  -i   !Ji:\  :   -  .         -  :     -  /0-r    LL&    9-;jn 

.-.t^q  -saxic;    sx    .'.: :-J    ^.LLu'^h      .A  ?di;r:  -  _9oo.s 

?,!••:  led    3X    ,fefij- .0    sw  nnxtirrsto'iai    ^d.^    Il£  ^O'lt    ^bna    ,  .  .;.^  ^.  .-..' 

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(icxriw  'i^vG    'ciiJO't    s^^i'ssvB   odj    iJ<^    < .V  ';_';.,..  a  th    v:a«   tG':^ 

•  li^illn-  nt'-j    to    a'iigj.6   Oo    tivll  mo-i'l   v^'iiv  .111;/  .  .  ■  1  .  ;; 

f;.'pte-c    del   stiixin    7,^^-^  "^feri^'o   odd"   nox:tf"fi;,- ■^i;   ■, 

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"-;■ ■.....-.:_    ,nl.y-0j;fn    p  :-..    ^sg:;  ■.  ^Ifto    ::L^;i      "  c-'.t  ,/    .    ew 

.  ...    o;-    :.xj^^   r^fiv;   eci-i.^   '.c    £::^i'i.i'0    S-ii^T      .A  ^■g^.x.l^&d   1c    ieoc 


Q  Do  you  remember  whether  that  was  called  to  our  attention  as  a 

separate  thing,  or  not?    At   I  don't  recall  whether  it  was 

or  not. 
Q  Hov/  many  hours  does  the  ordinary  monthly  farm  hand,  at  a  price 

per  month  with  board,  put  in  on  the  farm  in  the  day?  We  have 

had  some  evidence  on  that  on  several  occasions.   A.  Why,  they 

vary  all  the  way  from  10  to  15  or  17. 
Q  Puts  in  sometiioe  Sundays?    A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q  What  would  you  say  is  the  fair  nxmoar   of  hours  for  the  monthly 

farm!  hand  to  put  in,  in  the  month,  the  way  farms  go?   Do  you 

knov/  —  yourself,  I  mean?   A.   ''.ly  judgment  would  he,  300. 
Q  Three  hundred  hours?    A.   Ten  hours  a  day.      This  calculation 

for  October  on  the  price  per  hour  has  been  based  on  a  30-day 

month  and  10  hours  a  day. 
Q  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  the  ordinary  farm  hand  employed  by  the 

month  works  a  good  many  more  hours  than  that?   A.   I  suppose 

many  of  them  do . 

Q  Well,  isn't  it  a  rule?    A.  And  a  great  many  of  them  are  work- 
ing on  regular  hours.   That  is  becoming  more  necessary.   That 
is,  taking  the  hired  labor  at  the  present  time,  it  is  very 
difficult  fco  get  them  to  work  ten  hours,  even  if  you  can  get 
them  to  work  that  number  of  hours.   Many  comments  on  the  q.ues- 
tionnaires  include  the  fact  that  a  good  deal  of  their  labor  is 
working  only  nine  hours  —  that  is,  the  hired  labor.   The  man 
himself  may  put  in  more  time  than  that,  the  owner,  the  operator, 
because  he  has  a  personal  interest  in  that  business  and  would 
be  doing  little  things  about  the  place  when  his  other  men  are 
gone. 

Q  How  many  of  these  farmers,  judging  from  these  questionnaires, 
taking  the  list  sent  in  here  — ■  300  is  the  number,  isn't  it? 
Yes,  sir. 


, --.jLiW      ,A        , ';f50i5£,rcc   i&'iyvec    no    c^.ex■{j   no   tjijttebi 

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5  •:.■  ■:.  f  1  =  I        ■  -  •  -'-  * '      V.-'  ' 


4-1 

Q  How  many  of  them  are  really  employing  labor  by  the  month? 

A  Well,  probably  

Q  I  don't  want  "probably."  If  you  can,  I  wish  you  would  give  it 
to  me  exactly.  A.  Well,  I  can  give  it  to  you,  the  actual 
number  who  report  as  hiring  labor  and  those  who  report  their 
own  labor,  their  ovm  tim®, 

I  wish  you  would.   A.   I  have  not  ^nade  a  separate  tabulation 
of  that,  but  it  is  easily  obtainable. 

Q  Because,  when  there  are  only  300  reports  to  go  on  this  month, 
I  don't  think  that  is  quite  enough.   I  wish  you  would  give  it 
for  the  other  months,  too,  where  there  have  oeen   reports  sent 
in.   A.   I  don't  get  those,  because  most  of  the  reports  are 
sent  to  the  iTarm  Bureau  men,  separate  bureaus. 

Q  I  can  give  you  tiie  state  of  Maine.    A.   It  would  require  soma 
little  time  to  gather  them  in  and  get  that  information, 

Comm.  SAWYEK.   That  is  all  nov/,  Mr.  Ohairman.   I  may  have 
some  more  questions  later. 

Q   (By  Oomm.  Jordan.)   Mr.  Davis,  can  you  give  us  the  number  of 
returns  per  state?    A.   No,  not  right  offhand. 

Q  May  v/e  have  that  later?    A.   You  can  have  that  later;  yes, sir. 

Q   (By  Gomm.  Sawyer.)   That  is,  in  the  month  that  these  are  based 
on.    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q   (By  Gomm.  Jordan.)   These  300  returns.    A.   Yes,  sir. 

Q   (By  Gomm.  Burns.)  Mr.  Davis,  when  j;-ou  gave  this  report  to  the 
Commission,  based  on  the  August  and  October  survey,  did  you 
notify  the  Commission  at  that  time  that  the  basis  as  outlined 
by  the  Commission  in  their  previous  questionnaire  and  the  fig- 
uring of  the  costs  upon  that  questionnaire  had  been  changed? 

A   I  didn't  present  the  exhibits  at  either  of  those  hearings. 

Q  Well,  they  v/ere  presented  by  the  producers?   A.   They  were 
presented. 


,•■.    ,-.  r  f- 

«-  -.  --■■;■   no    02,  '"'*    ei'ioqe-^  OOS  y~-"^o   eix   e-sfexy    rs-aoV   ^eswfioe 

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THirB    aJ'ioqe-i    no&o    p-v^ii    e':5ii*   .e^:  ^  ^.K^no;;.  •  .  '._ 

ti-xfe   T;j-]Oci;;"i   t.ricr   lo  d-cofii  ssxiBoec    .  .  ''nor    1      ,A        .n; 

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•  fcr'.SMl'iv    JrigX'l   ^nr<     ^  o ;'       ,  ■"  '-s.:^-^.^^    I.t'^    c:.^ .; 

.-i     .     ,      T   ,  A  ..  no 

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-•:'    0.  :'■    t-'";:.r.'"'r' ''''"j. "■'"••:•"- 'f    ^bpJ    nc'.;';    ^ii'p.'.c    t  r'"'    '':c   "■rA/'i.:.. 


42 

Q  V/ell,  was  there  any  evidence  submitted  that  you  l^now   of  to  the 
Commission  by  the  producers  to  show  that  clianges  hadbeen  roade 
in  the  bases  of  computing  those  costs?    A.  Well,  the  tabu- 
lations were  discussed  at  that  time.   I  don't  recall  whether 
they  were  brought  out  or  not.   It  is  ray  impression  that  thsy 
were  gone  over  and  any  changes  noted  at  that  time. 

Q   (By  Commissioner  Sawyer.)  Well,  don't  you  know  that  the  Cora- 
mission's  attention  has  not  been  called  to  any  change  except 
in  the  mere  prices  of  labor,  grain  and  hay?    A.   Y/ell,  any 
change  that  has  been  made  has  been  brought  to  the  attention  of 
the  Commission. 

Q  '  Well,  now,  not  in  connection  with  figuring  costs.  We  don't 
know  of  any  other  changes  having  been  brought  to  the  attention 
of  the  Commission  except  those  in  ^he  prices  for  grain,  hay 
and  labor.   A.   Depreciation  was  brought  out  at  the  July 
hearing,  I  am  very  sure.   That  is  my  recollection,  that  it  v/as 
brought  out  at  that  time,  because  it  showed  a  marked  increase 
'  during  that  month,  as  I  recall  it,  and  discussion  followed  the 
presentation  of  those  figures. 

Q   (By  Comm.  Bird.)   It  would  appear  to  me  as  if  there  hadbeen 
changes  made  by  the  producers  in  the  method  of  estimating 
costs  but  that  they  had  not  definitely  made  those  statements 
to  the  Commission,  that  changes  had  been  made  and  ivhere  such 
changes  were  made  in  the  methods,  and  it  would  seem  to  me  very 
proper  for  the  Commission  hereafter  to  suggest  to  the  producers 
that  any  change  in  the  methods  be  brought  out  and  shown  up  to 
the  Commission,  any  change  upon  which  you  base  your  costs. 
I  see. 

Mr.  PATT3E.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  perhaps  the  Commission 
is  not  aware  that  Mr.  Davis*  direct  connection  with  these  mat- 
ters and  his  preparation  of  these  figures  does  not  go  back  to 


"^•Ed  GO-. 

I         . 


.  •*-•  -*■'  K-  Xa;        Jt-' 


5  •"ir.trClQ    "t-ii. 


;;  J-     ii     ^3_0r!:    OCT    -ijSfCuC    ^blf/ov    ^-I  (.X'tX        ' 


■.  .L--. 


.cw  a;'  .^'c  vj-'or.  o    S'^t't 


f'ix;^    '-^iv.i.C    .' 


43 

the  tlire    of  the  July  hearing.   He  has  only  had  charge  of  that 
work  since  that  time,  and,  if  the  Oormnission  would  permit  me, 
I  v/ould  like  to  call  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  figures 
presented  at  the  time  whan  these  changes  were  made  were  not 
presented  as  the  original  figures  of  the  milk  producers.  We 
were  notified  that  the  evidence  which  we  had  "been  presenting 
up  to  that  time  was  not  satisfactory  to  the  OoaBnission,  that 
you  wanted  more  evidence,  that  you  wanted  it  prepared  and  pre- 
sented in  a  different  way.  We  were  consulted,  called  into 
conference,  with  a  view  to  preparing  and  securing  information 
that  could  be  submitted  to  your  Commission.   The  Commission  it- 
self, I  presume,  approved,  adopted  or  accepted  a  cLuestionnaire 
that  we  did  not  originate  and  are  not  responsible  for,  except 
to  the  extent  that  we  collaborated  in  the  preparation  of  it. 
The  Commission,  or  somebody  for  the  Commission,  then  sent  those 
questionnaires  to  a  large  number  of  people,  including  the  mem- 
bers of  our  Association.   These  questionnaires  were  returned 
to  the  Commission.  An  expert  under  the  direction  of  the  Com- 
mission or  acting  in  conjunction  with  or  having  some  relation 
to  the  Commission,  went  to  meetings,  and  we  assisted,  collabor- 
ated all  the  time,  helping  the  Commission  and  its  expert  or 
the  expert  acting  in  conjunction  with  it  to  get  information 
direct,  o trier  than  that  returned  through  the  questionnaires, 
and  when  the  questionnaires  were  returned  and  the  otrier  infor- 
mation he  had  secured  was  made  available,  this  expert,  hired 
by  somebody  else,  without  our  knowledge  and  consent,  but, 
getting  all  the  time  all  the  help  we  could  give  him,   tabxiiat- 
..  j  ed  these  figures  and  presented  them  as  showing  the  cost  of 
production  of  milk  at  the  July  hearing,  if  my  memory  is  cor- 
rect.    At  thai  time  the  figiires  purporting  to  show  the  cost 
or  production  were  presented  oy   the  secretary  of  the  Commission 


t.'  K.  I. 

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as  the  result  of  the  tabulation  and  ttie  work  done  by  this  out- 
side expert  whom  the  Commission  ^vas  instrumental,  I  understood 
at  tlie  uime  and  have  ever  since,  in  procuring. 

Comm.  SWAYEH.  What  month  was  that?   Let  us  have  that 
fixed. 

Mr.  PAYTSS.   I  think,  July.   Dr.  Gilbert  will  verify  that. 

Comm.  SA^YKR,     We  have  not  been  talking  about  July,  except 
where  we  have  referred  bak  for  comparison. 

Mr.  PATTSS.  And  since  then  the  attention  of  the  Commiss- 
ion, I  understand,  has  been  called  oy   us  to  every  change  we 
have  made  or  suggested  or  reported  in  the  Chamber  of  Commerce 
basis  of  figuring.   Now,  does  that  make  it  clear? 

Comm.  BIRD.   That  is  clear,  Mr.  Pat tee.   I  could  not  tell 
without  referring  to  the  record;  personally  I  do  not  remember, 
strictly  as  a  matter  of  memory,  any  change  in  the  irBthod  of 
figuring  having  been  called  to  the  attention  of  the  Commission. 
I  realize  that  the  attention  of  the  Commission  had  been  called 
to  the  changes  in  prices. 

Mr.  PATTSE.  Yes,  sir.  ■'- 

Comm.  BIRD.   The  changes  in  costs,  but  I  don't  remember  of 
any  change  in  method  having  been  brought  to  the  attention  of 
the  Commission.   I  ma.y  be  in  error. 

Mr.  PATTEE.  I  simply  don't  want  the  Commission  through 
any  line  of  questioning  here  tu  leave  the  impression  that,  so 
far  as  we  are  concerned  in  the  submission  of  cost  figures,  we 
have  changed  a  ba,se  or  altered  in  any  v/ay  any  of  the  figures 
without  calling  such  alteration  to  tiie  attention  of  the  Com- 
mission and  defining  it,  subjecting  ourselves  to  any  line  of 
examination  with  raspect  to  it  that  you  impose. 

Comm.  BISD.   That  probably  7,-ould  be  on  the  records,  if 
there  were  any  records  of  those  meetings. 


i.  ;t' J 


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Mr.  PATTEE.   And.  if  there  were  any  changes  which  were  not 
called  to  your  attention  at  that  time,  we  disavow  any  faiilt  in 
not  calling  them  to  your  attention,  because  they  were  not  estab- 
lished,!" igured  or  changed  by  us.  We  had  no  voice  in  changing 

advice, soli citation 
them, if  any  change  v/as  iriade.   It  was  not  made  at  our/or  request. 

Comm.  BIBD.  Who  made  these  figures? 

Ml'.  PATTEE.   I  don't  know. 

Mr.  DAVIS.   I  prepared  those  figures  submitted  today. 

Q   (By  Comm.  Sawyer.)  You  prepared  the  October  figures,  also? 

A  Yes,  sir. 

Q  Those  were  not  prepared  by  tne  Commission?   A.   No.  Those  two 
were  prepared, and  those  cosxs,I  believe, are  taken  point  i^or 
point, with  the  exception  of  feed  and  la.bor,as  you  have  stated. 

Q   (By  Comm.  Bird.  )   Did  you  prepare  the  cost  figut-es? 

Q  I  aid  not. 

Q  Who  did  prepare  those?  Were  they  prepared  by  the  Oommission  of 
th»  producers?   A.  I  believe  specialists  from  Massachuse-cts 
and  Maine  v/ere  dovm  here  assisting  xn   the  preparation  of  those. 

Q  Assisting  the  producers  or  the  Commission?   A.  Now,  if  you 
can  define  where  one  leaves  off  and  the  oth3r  begins,  I  will 
answer  the  quesT.ion. 

Q  These  are  your  figures  that  you  submit  today?   A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q  Not  the  Commission's?    A.   No. 

Q  That  is  what  I  mean.  Were  those  figures  for  August  prepared  l>y 
the  Producers  or  were  they  prepared  by  the  Commission,  through 
Dr.  Gilbert?   A.  By  the  Commission  through ■ 

Q  There  was  a  point  when  the  producers  said  they  would  have  to 

j cease  preparing  the  evidence,  and  that  the  Coimnission  would  have 

to  prepare  it  themselves.    A.   Prepared  by  the  Commissifin 

through  Dr. Gilbert.   I  put  in  what  time  I  had  available  in  those 

months  assisting  in  that  preparation.   I  wasthare  probably  a 
few  hours . 

I 


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Q  There  are  just  one  or  two  more  questions  I  v/ould  like  to  ask 
you.   Taking  the  returns  received  on  these  300  questionnaires, 
how  many  of  these  men  out  of  the  300  actually  fed  grain  them- 
selves?  A.   I  didn't  tabulate  the  actual  ones  fed  or  those 
that  didn*t  feed,  but,  as  I  recall,  only  two  or  three  men  out 
of  the  300  were  not  feeding  grain  during  that  month.   I  have  the 
questionnaires  here  and  will  file  them  with  the  Commission,  if 
you  wish.   In  regard  to  the  information  that  I  took  off  those 
questionnaires,  I  didn't  attempt  to  tabulate  ail  the  questions 
on  there.  They  had  only  a  general  bearing  on  the  whole  situ- 
ation.  If  you  want  the  specific  information  on  number  of  cows 
and  the  amount  of  milk,  it  is  there,  and  the  amount  of  grain 
purchased  during  the  month,  and  the  amount  of  grain  fed  during 
the  month.   It  is  there. 

0  There  are  things  that  are  important,  I  think,  in  the  minds  of 
i  these 

the  Commission,  because/questions  have  come  up  with  the  Commiss- 
ion before.   First,  how  many  farmers  are  actually  feeding  grain, 
how  many  of  those  farmers  actually  employ  labor  outside  of 
their  own,  and  statistics  of  that  kind,  which  might  be  obtained 
from  a  report  of  this  kind,  so  that  we  may  know  upon  what  we 

are  reallv  basing  our  conclusions?  Another  thing,  can  you  tell 
I 
me  on  these  reports  that  you  have  turned  in  how  many  pounds  of 

milk  on  the  average  these  cows  produce?    A.   The  average 

amount  of  milk  per  month  was  reported.   I  can  go  through  those 

questionnaires  and  prepare  all  this  additional  information, 

but  we  have  not  done  so. 

Q  You  have  asked  these  questions,  and  then  you  have  not  given 

the  Commission  the  benefit  of  the  information  that  you  have 

obtained  from  the  questionnaires,  which  information  would  be 

important  to  the  Commission.   That  is  v/hat  I  mean.   We  ought 

to  have  the  whole  of  it,  not  a  part  of  it.   A.   I  see. 


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47 

Comni.  BI5D.  If  there  is  any  misunderstanding  in  regard 
to  this,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  a  statement  should  be  made  to 
the  Producers  so  as  to  make  it  perfectly  clear  that  when  changes 
in  the  formula  for  figuring  these  costs  are  made  by  the  Pro- 
ducers the  matter  shall  be  specifically  called  to  the  attention 
of  the  Commission.  Jt  may  have  been  done,  but  I  simply  make 
this  suggestion  in  order  to  clarify  the  thing. 

Chairman  ALLEN.  Mr.  Pat tee,  will  you  se3  that  this  is 
done? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  will  not  only  see  that  it  is  done,  but  I 
understand,  so  far  as  we  have  made  changes  that  has  been  done. 
I  want  it  made  perfectly  clear  to  the  Commission  that  there  has 
been  no  intention  of  misleading  the  Commission. 

Comm.  BIHD.  And  I  am  not  accusing  yOu  of  that. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  know,  and  we  do  not  intend  to  be  accused. 
Our  understanding  of  the  whole  matter  is  this,  tnat  when  Mr. 
Boutell  ?/as  here  he  was  here  in  the  interests  of  the  Commission 
and  that  these  changes  in  the  base  figures  of  the  Chamber  were 
made  by  him  iinder  the  direction  of  the  Commission  for  the  pur- 
pose of  making  the  base  figure  right.  You  did  not  leave  it 
to  us,  but  hired  this  man. 

Comm.  SAWYER.  When  was  Mr,   Boutell  here? 

Mr.  PATTES.   In  the  month  of  June,  if  I  ramember  correctly, 
the  hearing  for  fixing  the  prices  being  in  July,  when  those 
changes  were  made. 

Comm.  SAWYER.   In  August,  I  think. 

Dr.  GILBERT.   Ke  v/as  here  during  last  July. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Then,  I  may  have  gotten  the  wrong  month. 

Comm.  SAWYER.   What  I  wish  to  call  your  attention  to,  Mr. 

Pat-tee,  is  this,  that  there  have  been  changes  made  for  depre- 


II     .ofri" 


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'to 
elation  in  the  October  returns  over  the  figures  for  August, 

which,  so  far  as  I  know  —  and  I  have  been  at  all  the  hearings,- 
have  not  been  called  to  the  attention  of  the  Commission,  lor 
instance,  depreciation  for  the  state  of  Maine  has  been  increas- 
ed from  |13.50  to  |15.30;  for  the  state  of  New  Hampshire,  from 
.85  to  |19.20;  for  the  state  of  Vermont,  from  |l3.65  to 
.55;  for  Massachusetts,-  well,  that  is  the  same,  at  -115.75; 
and  for  Connecticut,  from  $14.70  to  |l7.25.   Now,  those  are 
changes  that  were  given  to  us  in  the  October  return. 

Mr.  PATTEE.  Will  the  Commissioner  compare  those  figures 
with  the  valuation  of  the  cows? 

Coram.  SAVvTSR.   Well,  the  valuation  of  the  cows,  unfortu- 
nately, has  not  been  given.   I  have  compared  it,  myself. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   You  have? 

Gomm.  SAWYER.  Yes,  and  I  cannot  account  for  the  increase 
in  depreciation. 

liLr*   PATTEE.   I  still  reiterate  that  any  change  in  figures 
of  that  character  that  has  been  made  in  our  figures  has  been 
called  to  the  attention  of  the  Commission.  At  the  time  of  the 

I 

adjustment  made  by  Mr.  Boutell  there  was  a  change,  as  I  under- 
stand it,  in  the  percentage  of|depreciation.  Jl^ow,  the  increase 
given  might  vary  from  month  to  month  according  to  the  valua- 
tion of  animals . 

Comm.  SAWYER.   That  is  true,  but  what  I  am  contending  is 
this .  You  say  that  these  changes  have  been  called  to  the  at- 
tention of  the  Commission.   I  take  issue  with  you  right  there, 
saying  that  they  have  not  been  called  to  the  attention  of  the 
Commission,  and  they  are  increases  in  every  case.   I  am  simply 
saying,  as  Mr.  Bird  said  a  few  minutes  ago,  that  when  such 

I 

changes  are  made  we  want  to  have  them  called  to  our  attention. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   In  other  v^ords,  when  tho  price  of  cows  advances 


. ,  .  •     ,  J-J3   eiii   <-  .  ■: 

*n'iuie'i  -if^oo^toC   nrij    rii   bu  oj   ne-vi-g   s*:!©-*  d-srict   sej; .     c 

'lo.'^OL    bXii    "50  noJ;:l-Bi;Xav  ert:?-  xid-x;. 

eciie-ion.i    aiiJ-   'iu'i  .tnuoooa   d-onn&o    I  hr-m-    ^seY      -  '  ■;;   .iraifoO 

♦  no-Ufc,.-' oe-cq&ii   nx 
^■.-".c'j:   ::.    c.-i  .^.;.;C    \:n.t    J.,,:;.:    &jr.  i:  .:  .^^-i   LIHb   I      .SS^TTA*!    ^-^iM 

':.vO    BFJi.  at'i:o-2x'j;  •iwo   nx  +£.nJ    •ii.<'v.^'i.B<.io  o 

ctlj-    lo   efr-.tt    r>ilt    JA      .iioissxitiittoO  e.i">'.-^    iO  noxj-iied'.tfi  Oiid-    o-+  beXIso 

ea.ee'iOiix   ©.ci^    ^-.f/CK.      .^l:)x;^.BXoy''rqa.b,'io   S3-e.tneo*j.6q  edS  ni    ^-ti   .bri.fi#s 
-.si/Xev   c  ■    ^^i:A^'l'co£  ri^tnoiji  oj-    rirfn'Oiss  ntotl  ^'--v   .tri^i.::   n 

»elKisxnj:;  Ic   Kox;r 
si  Snxorae.-'froc;  iTta   I   .tcriw  ,*t'd   »©L'^,t   ax    j£i1T      .  '  ''    ..rarioO 

:-a:     'ic    rin}:^i\e::ii::'   ■mi^    o,^   fosXX.Ko   Ki^^ci    j 'i-n   ?::V.!^ti  \ei\j   5';<i:?  ■  ■:. 

)K&vx>x;   cv.oo    xc    (;.-c.c'i.q   cdJ"    ni.rlw    ^7^.o'i,0'.^  i?;;.-i"c   nl      ..■      .    ' 


it  would  make  a  difference  in  tlie  amount  but  not  necessarily 
in  the  percentage  of  depreciation. 

Comm.  SAWYER.   In  other  ?/ords,  a  reason  should  be  given 
for  the  increase.  We  have  had  no  opportunity  to  look  these 
over  at  previous  hearings,  if  '.ve  do  have  no?/,  and  these  ques- 
tions should  have  been  brought  up  at  the  time. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  think  perhaps  there  may  have  been  a  mis- 
understanding, but  I  still  stand  on  the  fact  that  no  change 
in  the  basic  figures  has  been  made  by  us  arbitrarily  in  the 
Chamber  of  Commerce  figures,  except  such  as  v»ere  made  not  by 
us  but  by  the  expert  employed  by  you. 

Chairman  ALLEN.  Mr.  Pattee,  how  many  members  are  there  in 
your  Association? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   14,000  —  the  last  time  I  knew,  it  was  14,000 
and  some  hundreds. 

Chairman  ALLEN.  Approximately  how  many  are  outside  of 
Nav;  England,  would  you  say?   I  mean,  ?v"hat  is  the  total  nvimber 
of  milk  producers  as  such  in  New  England? 

Llr.  PATTEE.   Oh,  that  would  be  a  hard  thing  to  estimate. 
Do  you  mean  for  all  markets? 

Chairman  ALLEN.   Yss.  Of  course,  your  14,000  do  not  ship 
to  Boston? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Oh,  no. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   It  is  simply  a  matter  of  interest.  Give 
your  best  estimate. 

Mr,  PATTEE.   Commercial  milk  producers,  probably  30,000. 

Chairman  AILLEN.   Don't  you  think,  for  the  purposes  of  the 
Commission,  that  300  questionnaires  represent  a  small  number 
to  work  out  any  conclusion  from? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   It  might  or  might  not  be,  Mr.  Chairman.  We 
have  called  the  attention  of  the  Coimnisaion  repeatedly  to  the 


.ewiw    relief    t£     .  ■  :■;  -    :Mi3    e- 

o:'^aii:"fo   on   .t£;ri3"   ;fsjB']:    ;  LIS  a   I   ^cd    ,  n.s,i3tebnij 

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*'■ ., -ii .. .  :ii   .aojs   3i3    S't  .  0 

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50 

difficulty  in  reaching  people  in  the  time  within  which  they  have 
had  to  be  reached.   You  have  called  for  sworn  statements.   You 
are  somewhat  familiar  with  the  conditions  of  living  out  in  the 
coiintry.   You  know,  you  must  know,  how-  difficult  it  is,  es- 
pecially this  year,  to  send  out  to  farmers,  men  v^ho  are  un- 
accustomed to  this  sort  of  thing,  who  are  not  familiar  with 
processes  of  this  nature,  a  cold-blooded  questionnaire  dealing 
with  matters  some  of  which,  they  have  never  kept  track  of,  and 
ask  them  to  make  it  out,  say,  inside  of  a  week,  and  go  before 
a  Justice  of  the  Peace  and  swear  to  it  and  send  it  in.   To  my 
mind  it  has  been  a  most  remarkable  thing  that  so  many  people 
have  done  it. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   But  you  are  trying  all  the  time  to  get 
your  producers  to  keep  books? 

Mr,   PATTEE.   Yes,  sir.  --■  - 

Chairman  ALLEN.   Because  that  is  what  they  ought  to  do? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Yes,  sir.  -'  ^  ' 

Chairma.n  ALLEN.   And  putting  a  burden  upon  them.   I  see 
ithe  difficulty  there. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  would  call  youi'  attention  to  this,  that  a 
great  many  of  the  people  to  whom  these  questionnaires  have  been 
sent  are  not  producers  for  the  Boston  market.   They  are  pro- 
ducers of  milk,  for  instance,  for  jVIanchester,  Nashua,  Lowell, 
Lawrence,  Haverhill,  Pall  River,  Nev/  Bedford,  Worcester, 
Springfield,  Portland,  Lewis ton.  Auburn,  Providence,  and  other 
cities,  and  they  fail  to  send  in  the  costs  of  their  production 
to  the  Commission  as  far  as  Boston  is  concerned,  v/hen  they 
don't  send  milk  to  Boston » 

Chairman  ALLEN.   Then,  we  should  get  more  lists  from  those 
who  do  send  to  Boston.   It  seems  to  us  pretty  clear  that  300 
is  not  a  sufficient  number  to  figure  on. 


-u      .  ^  :.  ^   c:i   jijc    bnea   oi    ,:-'i-  .   ^- -  X&iceq 

rtct-xft   'lioXl.crK&l  Jon  ytii    -"-r-    ^j^nxiit    '?         .    ..   :  ---       ■■    beLXiO&''.uoo& 

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eiqoeq    vrisr.-    oa    ^-cjdd    g«id:t    sid^>f'i  aor;^,  jb  nosd   e£.ti  ;•  x 

jj  c   enoh  ev-Cii 

"^ai^oo   csoi   oc^    Gieo;jiiO-iq   ■ 

?0D    0.    iilg^-C    V9ii;t    :^&i.v   ai    t  HrC:t    ssuj-.oe?:      .MS.JJA  n.£i{:-::x£iiO 

■■  no^Bi?^    •■■■     'i.Lb:.   J3r; '-■•     ■  *  cio'o 
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. :  -.    :r;:uisxx   o;t    x<  diiwn    :-fi-rloiVlu'i   .s  .■■.-in    ^i 


51 

Mr.  PATTES.   But.  it  seems  to  me  you   should  bear  this  in 
mind,  that  the  300  you  get  are  the  most  desirable  and  the  best 
you  could,  select.   That  is  evident,  because  those  are  the  300 
who  have  enough  interest  in  their  business  to  knovv  what  they 
are  doing  and  to  keep  track,  in  some  way,  at  least,  of  their 
cost  accounts,  and  sv^ear  to  them  and  send  them  to  you  for  your 
information.   I  believe  the  reports  made  by  those  made  in  that 
v/ay  are  more  reliable  and  a  safer  guide  to  yovir  action  than  a 
mass  of  figures  that  would  not  probably  materially  change  the 
sums,  but  would  come  from  men  having  less  interest  in  the  bus- 
iness.  While  I  don't  say  that  -300  are  all  that  should  be  sent 
in,  I  do  believe,  and  I  think  some  of  you  familiar  with  coimtry 
conditions  vi,dll  agree  with  me,  that,  considering  that  we  sent 
out  ourselves  1200,  a  good  many  of  them  to  men  who  do  not  chip 
in  here,  a  return  from  300  is,  under  all  the  conditions,  all 
that  is  to  be  fairly  expected. 

Chairman  ALLEl^f.   I  think  you  should  impress  upon  your 
producers  that  there  is  some  burden  on  their  part  tc  Justify 
what  they  are  asking  for. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  ALL.E;N.   And  to  a  larger  extent  than  they  are  now 
doing. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   That  effort  has  been  constantly  made.   But 
you  must  make  some  allowances  for  the  situation,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   I  do.   I  live  in  the  coxintry,  surrounded 
by  my  friends,  some  of  them  farmers  who  do  not  take  any  stock 
in  books  anyway. 

Mr.  PATT.EE.   Well,  I  would  like  to  make  this  statem.ent. 
I  may  err  in  malcing  it,  but  I  believe  this  is  a  thing  that  has 
had  a  tremendous  influence  on  tr^e  number  of  questionnaires  that 
have  been  returned.   The  tabulations  that  have  been  made  from 


00^    ^y:<3    irru-   ©3C.1+    eeuiJC^ycf    ^:!■^f6i:;iv  .:10t5lfi;^ 

-r.L'd   sxil    rti    Jae'sed"n.E   sael   gcjtv.eri  nsifj  MOt'i  evr.os   biijc.v   .•^:.-:?    ,-arri;e. 

^noG    ocf  hlsjoda    j^icil    i.jx   e'is  OO^t^    r.  -    r'nr^j   I  ♦aseni 

lis    ,anoxJ.:LKoc    ^ftf    XI^  'j6bnf>    » ai  ^^5  r-ci'i  imj:^^y:.    c    t'--ro--:  iti 

,fc;i^oeqx:e   yX-:.U^':    .'^    oa-   ei    w>..(ij" 
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,\;    :\ysi              ■  r;.i: 

:  ^     ,  -  '   nx    • 


I  52 

the  questionnaires  that  originated,  at  least,  with  this  Com- 
mission, and  have  been  since  maintained,  as  shcv/ing  the  cost  of 
malcing  milk,  have,   as  a  result  of  sworn  statements  in  every 
case,  shown  a  very  considerably  higher  cost  of  production  than 
I  the  Commission  has  been  willing  to  aw^ard  to  the  producers  for 
their  milk,  and  I  have  repeatedly  myself  in  uoavarsation  with 
producers,  asking  them  to  send  in  such  reports,  last  with  this 
objection,-  "Yiliat  does  it  amoimt  to?   It  doesn't  fix  the  price 
'  of  milk." 

Ohairma.n  ALLEE".   Perhaps  if  you  got  30,000  of  them  it 
,  woiild  have  more  weight  with  the  Commission. 

Mr,  PATTEE.   I  don't  knov/  whether  it  wouJ.d  or  not,  but 
at  the  first  hearing  we  had  nearly  3000,  over  2000,  a.nd  that 
had  less  weight  than  the  recant  less  price  we  presented.   That 
is,  the  prices  you  have  found  recently,  with  less  question- 
naires, came  nearer  what  they  shovv'  than  when  you  had  over  2000 
to  go  by. 

Comm.  SAWYEB,   I  wish  the  Producers  would  file  with  the 
Commission  the  300  questionnaires  upon  which  they  base  the 
November  estimates, 

Mr.  PATTEE.  We  would  be  very  glad  indeed  to  do  that. 

Chairman  ALLEN.   Do  you  want  them  tabulated? 

Comm.  gA\yYEP,   No,  take  them  as  they  are, 

Mr.  PATTEE,   We  will  be  glad  to  file  the  originals  or  any 
tabxolation  desired, 

Comm,  SAWYSP.  But  I  v/ould  first  like  to  have  Mr.  Davis, 
or  some  one  in  your  Association,  answer  questions  that  may  be 
asked  in  regard  to  some  of  the  details. 

Mr.  DAVIo,   I  shall  be  vexy   glad  to  do  so, 

Mr,  CLARE.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  simply  like  to  suggest 
that  the  300  returns,  Mr,  Davis  says,  are  practically  the  same. 


■■£01   eieouX'Otqeiid'   o,-^    btfiwe  o^t^  ^..nilliw  ne^d   ssii  noxac 
.     .■  '..ill   ■il.ea\im   ^^.Lbe.v+iJoqs'x   ev&.r!    I    ,,.:  .      ^       .. 

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Now,  if  there  was  a  difference,  or  a  large  difference,  in  those 
that  were  returned,  I  thinic  you  wouJ.d  be  Justified  in  raising 
that  point;  but  Yifhen  you  get  300  reports  from  all  over  ¥ew 
England  and  they  are  practically  the  same,  why  are  they  not 
just  as  good  as  3000?  You  would  only  get  the  same  thing  with 
3000. 

Chairman  ALLE:m.  Mr.  Clark,  how  do  you  know  that  the  3000 
would  be  alike,  if  we  do  not  gat  them? 

Mr.  CLARK.   Well,  if  you  get  300  practically  the  same, 
why  are  you  not  justified  in  coming  to  the  conclusion  that  the 
rest  woxild  be  the  same? 

Chairman  ALLE¥.   If  you  should  follow  the  same  line  of 
argvunsnt,  you  might  say  that  10  would  be  stiff icit^nt. 

Mr.  CLAPK.   No,  I  would  not  consider  that  that  would  be  so. 

Chairman  AI.LEN.  And  that  if  the  cost  sho\'vn  by  those  10 
all  over  New  England  was  the  same,  we  wouldn't  need  any  more 
returns  on  q.uestionnaires . 
I      Mr.  CLARK.   Well,  I  tvoaldnn  consider  10  representative, 
but  I  think  300  from  all  over  New  England,  which  are  practical- 
ly the  same,  woiold  be  representative.  -;  ■ 

Chairman  ALLEN.   I  would  say  chat  we  do  not  consider  that 
300  is  a  sufficient  number,  and  I  suppose  you  have  respect  for 
our  judgment? 

Mr.  CLARK.   Yes,  sir;  alv/ays  have.  ..  ., 

Chairman  ALLlilN.   I  do  not  say  Lhat  we  would  want  30,000, 
but  we  do  think  300  is  a  rather  small  niomber.    You  say  you 
had  already  previously  got  2000.   Now,  if  all  of  your  farmers 
are  getting  the  feeling,  "What  is  the  use  of  doing  this?"  I 
think  a  little  editorial  in  your  paper  might  help. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Mr.  Chairman,  if  you  had  been  a  subscriber  to 
our  paper  you  wov-la   nave  seen  such  editorials.   Now,  with  entire 


oos 


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deference  to  the  Coinrnission,  we  are  simply  wondering  whether 
this  line  of  inquiry  covers  the  question,  and  whether,  in  view 
of  the  position  the  Commission  now  seems  to  te  taking,  it  is 
justified  in  taking  the  costs  of  distribution  of  two  or  three 
dealers? 

Chairman  ALLEN.  You  do  recognize  the  difficulties  on  the 
other  side,  then? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  certainly  realize  the  position  you  are  in, 
yes. 

Q   (By  Comm.  O'liare.)  Mr.  Davis,  I  would  like  to  ask  you  a  ques- 
tion.  Is  it  customary  to  pay  more  for  regular  farm  labor, 
steady  farm  labor,  than  for  the  day  labor  that  you  hire  from 
time  to  time?  -.-A.   This  compilation  here  of  the  wage  per 
month  without  board  includes  the  average  cost  of  those  farmers 
reporting  the  value  of  their  own  labor,  which  in  practically 
every  instance  has  been  $100  per  month  or  more. 

Q  Well,  taking  the  state  of  Maine,  for  instance,  we  have  m  the 
I  first  column  labor  with  board,  |37.50,  and  labor  without  board 
$99.  A.  That  labor  with  board  probably  includes  only  that 
which  they  hire  by  the .month,  but  does  not  include  the  operators 
or  the  owners  of  the  farms  own  time.  ITcw,  the  questionnaires 
this  time  asked  for  the  man's  valuation  of  his  ov^n  time,  what 
he  considered  it  worth,  without  board. 

Q  You  estimate  that  as  less  than  the  hired  labor?    A.   Well, 
these  are  just  v^rhat  the  questionnaires  show.   It  is  what  they 
have  placed  on  the  thing,  not  what  I  estimate  it. 

Q  I  am  trying  to  get  that  from  you  as  a  witness  Defore  the  Com- 
mission. A.  I  think  the  operator's  own  time  is  worth  much 
more  than  that  of  the  average  farm  laborer  which  he  will  employ. 

Q   Then,  I  understand  what  in  regard  to  the  day  labor?   Is  that 

the  hired  labor?   JTor  instance,  is  the  owner  of  tiie  farmi  in- 
I 


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DO 

eluded  in  the  estimate  of  |37.50  per  month  with  board  and  |99 

without  board,  or  does  h.e  come  in  the  |2.50  and  |3  a  day  class? 
I 
A  The  |2.50  and  |3  a  day  is  for  the  miscellaneous  day  labor  they 

hire  occasionally,  as  reported  on  the  :iuestionnaire.   That  is 
the  tabulated  average  of  those  reporting  on  the  hired  labor. 
The  other  figures  are  the  average,  as  reported,  for  labor  em- 
ployed all  the  time.   The  ^99  is  the  man's  ovm  time,  without 
board.   The  figures  run  along  with  surprising  xiniformity,  you 
'  will  notice,-  |99,  |99,  |92,  |93  and  |99. 
Q  What  do  you  find  on  the  price  of  feed?   In  some  cases  it  is 
lov/er  than  for  the  last  month,  isn't  it?   A.  In  practically 
every  instance  it  is  lov-er.  They  averaged  about  |65  the  last 
time,  and  this  time  the  figures  run  along  at  $62,  $60,  ^61, 
$62  and  $60. 
Q   I  think  you  show  some  increases  in  the  cost  of  labor  from  last 

month?    A.  And  there  are  some  decreases.        ;  i 
Q  Where?    A.   I  think  Kev/  Hampshire  has  decreased. 

I      Gomm.  SAWYER.   New  Hampshire  has,  yes,  tv;o  cents. 
Q   (By  Comm.  O'Hare.)   What  is  the  greatest  difference?  A.  ITot 
over  two  cents.   Any  more  questions? 
Gomm.  O'HAKE.   That  is  all. 

Gomm.  BIRD.   In  the  Chamber  of  Commerce  survey  the  farmer 
was  figured  at  the  average  day  wage,  the  hourly  rate,  and  than, 
to  compensate  him   for  his  additional  ability,  and  so  forth, 
over  the  ordinary  farm  laborer,  he  v;as  given  ten  per  cent  on 
the  entire  amount.   Now,  you  have  advanced  the  wage  to  the  ovvn- 
er,  and  he  still  gets  ten  per  cent,  and  gets  ten  per  cent  on 
that  advance  to  himself.   Isn't  that  correct? 

Mr.  DAVIS.-   That  is  the  report.   It  is  a  question  whether 
you  want  to  take  the  operator's  own  time  and  determine  it  from 
that  or  whether  you  want  to  take  the  average  wage  and  determine 


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I 


56 

it  from  that. 

Q  When  you  say  "the  operator's  o\vn  time",  you  mean  his  own  valu- 
I  at ion  of  his  o^oti  time?   A.  Yes» 

Q   I  v/ish  somebody  would  pay  me  for  my  own  valuation  of  my  own 
time.   The  Commissioners  /v0\jld  probably  like  to  be  paid  their 
own  valuation  of  their  own  time,  also.   Has  there  been  any 
check  placed  upon  that,  or  have  you  just  accepted  the  man's 
valuation  of  his  own  time?     A.  Well,  we  have  accepted  it 
as  his  sworn  statement;  that  is  all. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Ji'or  whatever  it  shows. 

Q   (By  Oomm.  Bird.)   On  the  average  how  did  that  run  on  the  300, 
the  average  valuation  of  the  man's  own  time?   A.   |75  to  |160, 
as  they  reported. 

Q  On  the  average,  how  much  was  that  over  the  price  that  the  farmer 
could  hire  help  for  on  the  same  basis,  with  board  or  without 
board,  whichever  you  have  included.    A.   Board  v/as  reported 
on  the  average  --   I  did  not  tabulate  it,  and  very  few  reported 
it,  but  what  few  did,-  at  a  dollar  a  day,  and  if  you  add  |30 
a  month  to  the  price  without  boa,rd  you  would  get  what  the 
average  laborer's  vvage  woxild  be,  provided  you  figure  it  with- 
out board,  which  is  the  only  reasonable  -way  to  get  at  it. 

Q  Your  figure  for  labor  with  board  is  137.50?   A,   In  Maine; 
^49  in  "Mew  Hampshire,  $46  in  Vermont,  |45  in  Massachusetts  and 
$49  in  Connecticut. 

Q  The  average  of  that  would  be  what?  Plave  you  averaged  it? 

A  Uo,  sir.   I  imagine  it  woiad  be  around  ^45  or  ^46,  and  adding 
the  |30  I  refer  to  would  raaike   it  about  $75  per  month. 

Q  Now,  youjr  owner  here  is  figured  without  board,  and  he  gets  his 
board  out  of  the  farm^?   A.   The  question  was  asked  in  this  way: 
j  "What  do  you  consider  a  fair  value  for  your  ovi/n  time  per  month 
without  board?"   And    the  top  one  here,  from  Vermont,  says. 


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0  Presumably  that  man  from  Vermont,  of  whom  you  are  speaking 
there,  puts  his  tiras  down  at  ^95  and  gets  a  large  part  of  his 
living  expenses  out  of  the  farm,  besides;  so  that  indirectly 
he  gets  a  good  deal  of  his  board  from  the  farm.    A.-   ¥.rhy,  the 
raw  materials,  of  course,  that  the  farm  produces,  furnish  him 
with  his  board. 

Q  Well,  that  is  quite  a  xTiSterial  part  of  his  board,  so  that  indi- 
rectly he  is  getting  his  board  as  well  as  ^95,  or  at  least  a 
large  portion  of  his  board  as  well  as  $95,  so  that  that  man  is 
receiving  the  equivalent,  we  will  say,  of  something  like  $115, 
on  top  of  which  he  is  receiving  ten  per  cent  for  his  managerial 
ability.   Isn*t  that  correct?   A.  Yes,  that  is  true  on  this 
basis  of  figuring.  We  took  advice  at  the  time  Professor 
Bcutell  was  here,  and  some  of  the  other  State  representatives 
were  down,  and  we   said,  "What  is  the  fairest  basis  for  determin- 
ing the  wage  —  per  month  with  board  or  per  month  without 
board?"   They  said,  "Use  it  psr  month  without  board  and  convert 
it  back  to  hours."   ?row,  their  recominendation  was  that  a  26- 
day  month  and  10-hour  day  be  used.   On  the  figures  presented 
this  time  they  figure  on  a  30-day  month  and  a  10 -hour  day- 

Q   (By  Gomm.  0*Fare.)   Will  you  explain  how  you  found  the  differ- 
ence between  the  costs  of  the  board  of  the  farm  owner  and  the 
employee?    A.   Well,  it  is  not  determined  there.   The  farm 
owner  places  a  higher  value  on  his  time  than  he  does  on  the 
time  of  his  hired  man. 

I 

Q   The  figure  here  is  $99  without  board,  and  for  the  employee  $3 
a  day  without  board,  and  |2.50  with  board.   That  is  allowing 
|15  a  month  for  the  employee's  board  and  for  the  board  of  the 
farm  owner  $G1.50,  isn't  it?    A.   Well,  the  average  of  those 
per  month  with  board  is  $45.  i 


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I  58 

Q  V/hat  I  want  to  make  plain  is,  how  you  get  at  the  difference  in 
cost  of  board  for  the  farmer  himself  and  the  employee.  A.  You 
car*t  get  it  from  the  tabulation  here. 

Q  The  farmer  himself  has  his  board  figured  at  *61.50,  and  that 
for  the  hired  man  at  $15?   A.  Well,  you  can't  r^et  it  accu- 
rately from  this  tabulation,  because  you  are  comparing  ti?/o 
classes  of  help  --  the  operator's  time  and  the  laborer's  time. 
The  questionnaires,  running  them  through,  run  around  a  dollar 
a  day  or  |30  a  month  for  board,  and  that  plus  $45  would  give 
you  $75,  which  would  be  for  the  laborer's  time,  the  average 
hired  laborer's  time,  $75  a  month  without  board. 

Q   (By  Comm.  Bird. )  With  board?    A.   Without,  You  have  added 
your  board  to  it, 

Q  '  (3y  Comm.  O'Kare.)   I  aon'.t  get  that  quite  clear  in  my  mind. 
It  seems  to  me  there  is  300  per  cent  difference  here. 

A  Ke  pays  the  man  in  cash  $45  on  the  average,  his  hired  laborer. 
Many  of  them  have  reported  over  that  and  some  under.   You  cannot 
compare  that,  in  order  to  get  youjr  board,  with  what  the  opera- 
tor has  placed  as  t^ie  value  on  his  own  time  here,  can  you,  to 
determine  your  value  of  board?   That  is,  you  cannot  subtract 
$45  from  $92,  say,  and  get  the  value  of  board,  because  you  are 
comparing  operator's  time  and  laborer's  time.   But  the  ques- 
tionnaires sh0v7,  by  r;mning  through  them,  that  those  w^ho  have 
I  reported  the  value  of  board  place  it  at  about  a  dollar  a  day, 
which,  added  to  the  amount  paid  to  a  laborer  without  board  for 
a  month,  say  $45,  gives  you  a  full  expense  for  the  laborer  of 
$75  a  month. 

Q  Well,  you  admit  this,  don't  you,  that  in  the  case  of  the  farm 
owner  the  board  runs  over  $2  a  day?   A.  You  are  referring  to 
the  $92? 

Q   $99,  taking  the  figures  for  Llaine  and  allowing  $61.50  a  month 


nj^o     ■  -  ■;    ^XlsW 


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59 
for  board?    ^,      That  man  who  is  reported  at  |;99  is  not  getting 
any  more  for  his  board.   At  |30  a  month,  ha  is  getting  |69  a 
month  for  his  time,  as  I  interpret  the  figures.   You  simply 
deduct  the  board  from  this  man's  time.   He  simpl;/  answers  this 
question:  "What  do  you  consider  a  fair  value  for  your  time 
without  board?"    Nov/,  that  means  that  he  has  included  the 

board  in  this  price.   If  you  deduct  $30  from  $99,  you  got  $69, 
what  he  figures  that  his  time  is  worth  apart  from  board. 
Q   {By  Oomm.  Bird.)   If  you  ask  a  man  specifically  for  the  value 

,  on  his  time  without  board,  I  aon't  see  why  you  should  turn 
around  and  drav/  the  conclusion  that  he  has  given  his  answer 

'  with  board >  A.  Well,  I  do  not  interpret  it  in  any  other  way 
than  that  the  man  has  put  a  value  on  his  time  and  has  included 
his  board  in  that  valuation. 

Ohairman  ALL-rtN.   I  think  Mr.  Davis  is  right  on  tiiat .   If 
you  ask  a  man  what  he  wants  for  his  time,  paying  his  ovvn  board, 
the  result  vi/ould  be  the  same  as  if  you  asked  hiai  for  the  value 
of  his  time  without  board,  and  you  would  simply  have  to  make 
the  deduction  for  what  the  board  would  be.   In  the  first  case, 
he  would  put  in  a  figure  for  his  time  only. 
Q   (By  Comm.  Bird.)   Just  a  moment,  Mr.  Chairman.   I  asked  Mr. 

Davis  a  question  before  that.   The  question  was  whether  the  man 
who  was  charging  himself  at  $99  was  not  getting  a  considerable 

'  portion  of  his  board  from  the  fann?        A.   Yes,  but  he  has 
placed  a  cash  value  on  it  and  he  has  estimated  the  value  of 
his  time. 
Q  Well,  he  is  charging  $99  to  his  costs,  for  his  time,  and  he  is 
getting  in  addition  to  the  $99  a  considerable  portion  of  his 
living  expense  from  that  farm,  ailthough  he  is  charging  himself 

,  at  $99  v/ithout  board.    I  don't  see  why  that  might  not  amount, 
say,  to  $20,  giving  the  man  the  equivalent  approximately  of 


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$120  a  month?   A.   That  is,  adding  the  10  per  cent? 
Q  No,  simply  taking  the  amount  of  living  expense  that  he  is  get- 
ting out  of  the  farm  himself  in  addition  to  the  .i?99  at  which 
he  has  charged  himself.    A.   Is  he  or  is  he  not  entitled  to 

put  a  cash  value  on  that  which  the  farm  furnishes  him? 

i 

Q  He  is  entitled  to  do  so,  but  have  you  charged  him  in  your  re- 
port with  vvliat  he  himself  takes  out  of  the  farm?   A.   No. 

Q  Well,  if  you  have  not,  and  the  farm  produces  it,  he  has  got 
the  value  of  it  and  his  ^99  besides.   If  that  is  true,  that 
owner  is  getting  the  equivalent  of  about  $120  on  this  $99  basis, 
or  '</jiat  you  might  call  $100  a  month,  which  is  $45  over  and 
above  the  price  of  his  hired  laborer,  which  is  $540  a  year,  and 
that  is  not  taking  into  consideration  the  10  per  cent  which  he 
is  rsceiving  in  the  costs  for  his  managerial  ability,  besides. 
He  is  being  paid  a  higher  wage  on  account  of  his  managerial 
ability,  and  then  he  is  receiving  10  per  cent  besides.   Isn't 
that  correct?    A.   That  is  true. 

Q  Nov/,  do  you  think  that  is  right?   A.   I  think  that  10  per  cent, 
perhaps,  should  be  cut  out  of  that,  _•  ■..  -   .    •:  .• ;  , 

Q  What  I  am  getting  at  is  this,  that  there  nas  been  a  change 

made  in  the  original  base  or  schedule  upon  which  the  costs  were 
computed  at  first.   It  was  felt  that  it  was  not  fair  that  the 
man  who  ov/ned  the  farm  should  only  receive  a  day's  wage,  and 
I  therefore  10  per  cent  was  included.   Now,  there  has  slipped 
into  the  proposition  --  whether  right  or  wrong  I  am  not  arguing?- 
simply  calling  to  the  attention  of  the  Commission  the  fact  that 
it  is  there,-  an  additional  wage  of  $45  a  month,  the  equivalent 
of  that,  above  the  day's  wage  to  the  laborer,  and  in  addition 
to  the  10  per  cent  that  was  figured  into  the  cost.   I  am  not 
arguing  whether  it  is  right  or  not,  but  I  want  to  know  whether 
that  is  a  proper  statement,  and,  if  so,  the  Coiataission  ought 


■oi-   i>eJ.iiJ-ne   j-on   erl  ax  10   eii  al      .-'  .'l^c, ..:_.    i>e3'j£r'o   Bsd  ©r' 

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siri  rioxriw   i'l'sec'  leq   01  eric?-  nox:tBiei3xejtoo   ctni.  s*^'^^fi'"^^c-'^'    si   ^'.^f^'cr 
.sscletd    tV.ci'iixoB  .I.tx'ifi3Bnj&ffi  ain  icl   sJsco   f^Hd"   ni:   gni-'isot— r   8.c 
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.  t-u  1  ^  w  X    o  j-flT      <  A.  ? ,-■  0  £, 's 'I o  0   d  Jtifi^- 

..tcieo   '<:j;,.    01   txxi^t  ;>i.n.cxiJ    I      .A        '^:&d-Ql'i  ax   ^xx'ut  :taxrlj   jjoy_   ob    ^v-'oK     p 

.:''xj  ?    'io   1  ao  ctuo   ed    Lluoii?    ^acaxiier 
egniirlc   ii  list:'    a£.ri   e-s;.;.:"    j^-iu    ,-iXao    sx   Ji;  i;n.i.:j-£g  ra^;   I   cs-jsiIvs      i;; 
t>'isw   staorj    ferfcT   xioiiiw   noqjj   eii/i)£..rioa  -jo   bsbo   lijiii'^i'to   i;':J"   nx    bb£ii)i 

!j.:cj    ,6SBv.'    s'vfcis  s  evxfcoei  vir'G  ijlwoxic?  i^n.-  j.   or£:i-  bsnv  o   Oi^v.   ix&is. 

£.eq.cxx£,   ox-ii   fjtri"    ^wo*!      .fcefcwicnx    s^a-    .tnec  -xeq   OX   eio'it-iorf:^ 

■tgr^xjjsi^;  c^on  aa   I  ^^no-^i':,    'lO    Jxigxri  -rcx^cfexiv:  --   ac  L:i  Leo c^oiq   i,dJ    o+ni: 

:^/■i:f^Xi; vxi.fi    oilJ-    ,.;+iiOi,i  x.  SH    "i-    Tgcw  XxfiOxrfxx>JD>p  n^i  -tfcffix..'    ax  :?x 

rjr.i-'-xi.&ij  iti    an^    t'le^fodsX   ec?   0,7    ^si'^^v^r  s'^isx   sx-^   evoo^'  ,d.t.)iJ    lo 

• 'ju  raj;   I      .c^3O0    ocir    y:;rij.    ,..  ;.,.,...   0..=    ^^-sii:?    jKPo   'itc    OX   sxic-    Oo 


\  6-i. 

to  knew  it. 

Q  (By  Goxmn.  O'Hare.)  Will  you  tell  us  wiiat  the  incrsase  allowed 

I 
by  the  farmer  for  his  labor  here  is,  over  August?   A.  I  don't 

know  that  I  have  my  August  figures  here.   (Examining  figures.) 

In  New  Hampshire  in  August  the  price  per  hour  was  figured  at 

32  cents,  and  in  November  at  33  cents.   In  Massachusetts  in 

November  it  is31  cents,  and  in  August  it  was  33  cents. 

Q  Have  you  got  it  by  days,  Mr.  Davis,  the  same  as  it  is  on  this 
sheet?   A.   I  don't  know  that  I  have.   (Examining  figures.) 
By  the  day,  without  board,  in  Maine  in  August  it  was  |3.16, 
and  in  November  $3;  in  New  Hampshire  for  the  same  months,  |5.34 
and  $3.25;  in  Massachusetts,  |5.40  and  03.25;  in  Vermont,  |3.25 
in  August  and  ^3  in  November;  and  in  Connecticut,  in  August 
13.21  and  in  November  |3. 

Q  I  What  percentage  do  you  figure  that,  as  an  increase?   A.  Aide- 
crease  for  November  over  August,-  a  decrease. 

Q,  Can  you  give  us  your  figures  for  August  on  the  employees? 

A  No.   That  was  not  available;  that  ;iuestion  was  not  asked.  This 
is  the  first  time  that  any  question  in  the  questionnaire  was 
asked  to  determine  the  operator's  own  time,  and  it  is  the  first 
time  that  it  has  entered  into  these  figures,  at  all. 

Q  Can  you  give  me  any  figures  to  snow  whether  these  figures  set 
forth  an  increase  for  the  employees  over  August?  A.  These 
do  not  show.   If  we  use  the  operator's  reporc  of  his  own  time 
it  will  show  an  increase.   I  don't  know  what  the  percentage  is. 

Q  To  the  employees.   A.   The  employees.   Well,  they  run  practi- 
cally the  same,-  in  Maine,  $44  in  August,  November  |37.50; 
New  Hampshire,  3p44  in  August,  $49  in  November;  In  Vermont,  4^2 
in  August,  in  November  |46 ;  in  Massachusetts,  $5.92  in  August, 
|45  in  November. 

Q  Runs  along  about  the  same  average,-  about  the  same? 


XT 


ftO     'cl    J-J:     ^  •  ^  ,1    ,'tlL     ^BVSt)  J^d     CJX    C»-0£     vt 

i  *v:  .ev^ui    I      -  ■  Vo&    I      .A        "Td' 

.  &'.    '^:.:  .I'-'-e''--'     rrr    ■.,:  jf.    .1.  ,   . 
-fci:/ .A   .A        •?6aj!3£'SorJ:   .rvs   ss   t^-  - 

r.~;:iT    .fiv;-  i^r^ur    *.ei{:*    i       .    .  .        . 

Sjbvv    ©ixi-ftno  i;;^-j:^u '     •■  •       ;...    noictai'.-..}.    y'''-s   J'iSriJ'    6ni.i.^    osxx.    ....  . 

.  . ,.-    .,....,,  ■  :^'    ' '■■  30-f\.'-gx?    turrit    oLi   evxg  jjcv   ..... 

.  .;/0'ies_   v-iiU    J;:x,:v.    v;onii  :f*'.c       '.      .  ^:    ...vcn-f    r-x:  l-.c 

..,■.■',■■■-■  f  •■  ' 


62 

A   Those  run  right  along  about  tha  same. 

Q   Can  you  tell  us,  Mr.  Davis,  when  there  has  been  a-ny   increase 

I 
allowed  to  farm  labor?   A.   The  price  per  hour  has  been  de- 
termined, not  with  board  but  without  board,  at  |72.87,  $75.86, 
|71. 66,  and  so  forth. 

Q  Averaging  about  the  same  as  this?  A.   Those  average  about  the 
same.  As  I  say,  the  operator's  time  came  into  the  question- 
naire this  time. 

Q  Can  you  tell  us  v/hether  there  has  been  any  increase  in  wages 
to  farm  labor  since  the  Commission  has  been  m  existence,  or 
during  the  last  year?   A.   Oh,  I  think  there  have  been  in- 
creases . 

Q  When?   A.   They  may  have  bean  very  gradual.   Those  who  didn't 
wish  to  pay  the  increase,  many  of  them,  have  cut  dov/n  the  size 
of  the  herds,  and  .-oany   of  them  are  doing  their  own  v-ork.   I 
think  more  of  that  condition  exists  today  than  at  any  other 
time.   It  is  shown  by  the  milk  supply  in  the  city,  now,  that 
we  are  shorter  during  this  season,  as  it  has  been  reported  to 
me,  than  at  any  other  time  for  several  years.   The  only  other 
explanation  of  it  is  that  farmers  have  been  obliged  to  do  a 
large  part  of  their  own  work  and  have  cut  down  the  size  of 
their  dairies  to  that  point. 
I      Comm.  O'HASS.   That  is  all. 

Q  I  (By  Comm.  Sav/yer.  ^   You  do  not  take  any  responsibility,  then, 
for  the  reports  of  the  costs  of  production  for  August?  -^ 

A  No ,  s  ir . 

Q  Mr.  Pat tee  puts  that  up  to  the  Commission.      A.   I  spent 
a  fevtf  hours  in  assisting  in  preparing  those  in  August,  and 
those  changes  were  made  at  that  time  and  were  presented,  and 
it  is  my  recollection  that  changes  would  be  discussed  at  the 
executive  meeting  of  the  Commission  and  were  not  gone  over 


,  '  c  .  ;-    ^     s.  i.-    «.c-ii-  l-'.-u  ..         '^..ic- 


sti£n 


-r.i.   need    eviui   e-  .  .A        tii-t 


"str-.+  o    -irTD   vni-T      .3':i.>t\.  li^'ievsf. 


, v*ilxc 
.    I      .A 


E:jinJ 


e?^i<l 


nr  c. 


b5 

publicly.   I  know  that  the  exhibit  was  merely  filed  and  that 
no  explanation  was  made  of  it  either  by  Professor  Bout ell  or 
by  Dr.  Gilbert.   That  is  as  far  as  I  know,  and  I  assume  that 
at  that  time  they  went  over  those  changes, or  that  if  they 
studied  the  exhibit  at  all  they  would  have  seen  those  changes, 
and  any  previous  figuros  that  might  go  in  would  go  in  on  the 
same  basis;  that  you  had  the  exhibit  at  that  time  and  could 
look  it  over;  and  we  have  reported  on  the  same  system  since 
that  date,  with  the  exception  of  a  change  in  the  valuation  of 
cows,  as  shown  by  the  questionnaires.  We  asked  that  question, 
for  them  to  report  what  the  average  value  was,  because  many 
reports  showed  that  they  were  figuring  in  their  vailue,  and  to 
get  at  it  we  asked  the  fanner  to  report  what  the  value  was. 

Q  Uow,  Mr.  Davis,  as  we  have  understood  it,  the  other  costs,  so- 
called,  in  the  Chamber  of  Commerce  report  were  as  a  rule  used. 
Now  I  find  that  in  August,  for  Hew  Hampshire,  use  of  buildings 
was  increased  from  ^5.65,  as  given  in  the  Chamber  of  Commerce 
report,  to  $9.73,  in  August,  as  reporc^d  by  the  Nev/  England 
Milk  Producers  Association.   Now,  I  wonder  what  autnority  there 
was  for  making  any  such  change  as  that.   It  was  not  called  to 
the  attention  of  the  Commission,  except  as  it  was  given  to  us 
in  the  report.  There  is  nothing  in  the  questionnaires  to  show 
that  the  use  of  buildings  should  be  increased,  is  there? 

A   I  think  at  that  time  there  was  filed  with  the  Gnamber  a  revision 
of  the  New  Hampshire  figures,  and  you  will  also  find  a  revision 
of  the  Massachusetts  figures  coming  in  at  about  that  time.  That 
is,  you  will  find  that  tne  quantity  figures  for  feed  m  the 
Massachusetts  report  have  changed. 

Q  Yes,  I  noticed  that.   A.   Those  changes  were  all  made  at  that 
time. 

Q  They  were  all  made,  but  were  not  called  to  the  attention  of 


i     \0      - 

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ij   nox:;xj{f.tev   exij-   nx  noxjqeoxe   exict   i: '         t. 

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:  v^vBnr  .!.i.-i    ©"xew    assnBXic    OGeril'      .>         .JXi'J    ueoxc?-ari    I    ,EftY 


the  Coiui'jaission.   A.  I  don't  know  whose  responsibility  it  was 
to  get  them  called  to  the  attention  of  the  Commission.  If  when 
the  report  was  presented  it  was  discussed,  it  woiold  have  been 
brought  out,  as  far  as  I  can  see. 
Q   (By  Comm.  O'Hare.)   Mr.  Davis,  can  you  tell  me  whether  there 
,  has  been  any  geraeral  increase  allowed  to  farm  labor  since  '.Tur 
has  been  declared?    A.   Oh,  yes. 
Q|  .What  is  it?   A.  Why,  farm  labor  was  ordinarily  hired  at  $30 
to  $35  a  month.   That  is  my  general  recollection. 
That  is  with  board?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q  An  increase  of  $2.50  a  month?    A.  That  is  my  general  impress- 
ion of  what  it  was  costing  before  the  war,  and  prices  have 
varied  a  great  deal  since  then. 
Q  Can  you  give  us  the  price  of  milk  that  the  farmer  got  f.o.b. 
Boston  at  the  time  war  was  declared?   A.  I  cannot  give  it  to 
you  offhand.   I  can  look  it  up. 

Comiii.  O'HARE.   Perhaps  Mr.  Pattee  couJLd  give  it  to  us. 
Mr.  PATTEE.   That  was  a  year  ago  last  April? 
Comm.  O'HARE.   Probably  Mr.  Wliiting  or  Mr.  Hood  would  be 
able  to  give  it  to  us. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  think  the  Commission,  if  it  undertakes  to 
pursue  that  inquiry,  could  pursue  it  more  intelligently  with 
some  knov/ledge  of  conditions  that  obtained  at  that  time. 

Comm.  O'HARE.   That  is  Just  the  point  I  am  trying  to  get 
at,  Mr.  Pattee. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Yes.   I  am  afraid  I  cannot  make  it  plain  with- 
out  making  some  kind  of  a  statement.   If  you  wish  me  to/''so,  I 
will  state  that  previous  to  a  year  ago  in  August,  which  was 
some  time  subsequent  to  the  declaration  of  war,  there  was  no 
general  system  for  the  purchase  of  milk  whereby  it  could  be  de- 
termined what  it  cost  delivered  in  Boston   Different  prices 
were  paid  in  different  sections,  depending  on  conditions  in 


A 


eisd.t  lertlexiw  em  lied   wo^  rit-o    »8iv£'i   .'i«I     {.atfiH*0    frfiimoC   -^jS) 
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.£ev,   ^xfO      ,A  '^fcs'i.sics.b  need  ^-... 

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.'liu    ^seY   ,A     '^ii-iiiocf  xiixw   2X    _; 

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4'iv.iv;;  eonX3  lnQb   o^e'r:.   .s  bexisv 

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.D.J    ecr    .:  X    ©"Xg    'ji    eM(j£> 

.   C'  -•'..:    .^&1        •liii       <.t.C 

^. ....  bftfixxtrifed" 


65 

those  sections t  Where   you  have  perhaps  now  a  twelfth  zone,  in 
which  the  price  is  uniform,  at  the  time  of  declaration  of  war^ ■ 

Comci.  0*HAPE.  My  question  was,  f.o.b.  Bosoon,  Mr.  Pattee. 

Mr.  PATTEE.  Yes.  Well,  in  order  to  know  what  he  gets  for 
it  f.o.b.  Boston  you  would  have  to  know  v/hat  he  got  for  it  back 
there.   The  price  was  made  so  much  back  there,  and  the  price 
for  it  depended,  you  know,  like  Doolay's  Breakfast  J'ood,  on  who 
you  w^ere.  That  is  one  of  the  things  that  v/e  have  tried  to  re- 
duca  to  uniformity.  At  that  time,  at  the  time  of  declaration 
of  war,  producers  living  in  the  same  zone,  whex-e  the  cost  of 
transportation,  the  cost  of  bringing  it  in,  was  the  same,  got 
varying  prices.   Unless  you  know  about  the  varying  prices,  I 
don*t  see  how  you  can  tell  what  the  farmers  averaged  to  get  in 
any  zona  or  throughout  New  England. 

Oomm.  O'EARE.   Can  you  give  us  any  information  as  to  wheth- 
er there  jr^aa  been  any  increase  paid  to  farm  help  since  a  year 
ago  last  A.pril?  .:  > 

Mr.  PA.TT?iE.   The  record  shows  repeated  increases  in  cost 
of  farm  labor. 

Oomm;.  O'HAHS.  Mr.  Davis*  figure  is  about  |2.50  increase. 

Mr.  PATTEE.  Well,  Mr.  Pavis*  statement,  as  I  understand 
it,  is  of  the  prices  given  now,  made  up  from  these  question- 
naires, and  he  is  giving  you  an  estimate  of  what  in  his  judg- 
ment was  the  average  price  some  time  ago.   But,  as  long  as  this 
line  of  questioning  has  developed,  I  would  like  to  ask  the 
Commission  to  hear  Professor  Southwick  of  the  Massachusetts 
College  of  Agricvilture  at  Amherst,  who  can  qualify  as  an  expert 
on  farm  accounting,  relative  to  the  legitimacy  of  tnose  figures 
and  th.e  system  under  v^hich  they  are  obtained,  and  he  may  be 
able  to  furnish  you  vi/ith  information  you  have  not  received 
relative  to  costs  from  other  sources. 


c, 


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66 

Professor  SOUTB^VICK.   I  am  willing  to  ansv/er  any  questions, 
Mr.  Pat tee.   I  don't  know  that  I  am  prepared  to  give  testimony 
that  may  be  desired  at  this  time. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Professor  Southwick  is  qualified  by  reason  of 
his  education  and  his  position  with  the  Massachusetts  Agricultu- 
ral 'College,  and  I  would  suggest  tliat  questions  be  asked  hiia 
along  the  same  line  that  you  have  been  pursuing  with  Mr.  Davis. 

Professor  B.  Q.  SOUTHWICK  --  sv/orn. 

Q   (By  Gomm.  Bird.)  Your  full  name ,   Professor?   A.  B.  G.  South- 
wick. 

Q   (By  Gomm.  O'Hare.)  Gan  you  tell  us.  Professor,  what  the  pre- 
vailing rate  of  wages  v/as  that  was  paid  to  farm  help  in  April, 
1917?    A.   In  April,  1917,  I  was  in  Connecticut,  and,  accord- 
ing to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  wages  varied  with  the  kind 
I  of  man  a  person  hired.   He  might  hire  a  boy  or  a  young  fellow 
for  less  than  vi/OuJLd  be  given  to  a  full  grown  man.  There  would 
be  fluctuations  showing  a  considerable  variation,  but  I  should 
I  estimate  that  somewhere  in  the  vicinity  of  ^30  a  month  was  paid 
for  9  £^ood  farm  hand  a.t  that  time.   That  would  be  the  best 
estimate  I  could  make. 

Q  My  question.  Professor,  was,  the  prevailing  rate  of  wages  for 
farm  labor.    A.  Well,  that  is  as  good  an  answer  as  I  can 
give  you. 

Q  You  vvouldr't  consider  that  a  competent  answer  to  the  question 

as  to  the  prevailing  rate  of  wages  in  that  community  for  farm 

labor?   I  said  "farm  Jabor" .   I  thought  my  question  might  be 

construed  as  meaning  competent  farm  labor.   A.   Wall,  ccrapetent 

farm  labor  $30  a  month,  with  board.   That  would  vary,  and  you 

would  find  men  paying  only  $20  a  month,  and  others  $55. 
I 


-   ,  :J0?.    ,  C?    ,H      .A        ^''sor!?>fe'xo-i*I    ^e^ii&^.  Llii't  n:.JcY     ^v.ti-i^    .fiiiJ-oC      -)      ';■ 

•  }i  D  X  .  v 

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t  ■  1.         «  •  -         t-ii-  -  '  ■  '  — •    -  -  *■     - 


O  Y 


Q   Can  you  tell  us  wiiat  it  was  in  April,  1918?    A.   This  past 
April?   I  have  heard  men  saying  that  they  had  got  to  pay ■ 

Q  Not  what  you  heard.   Tell  us  what  you  know.    A.   I  aai  not 
hiring  men,  a,nd  am  not  running  any  farm.  All  I  know  is  what 
I  have  heard,  in  regard  to  what  the  price  of  labor  is.   If  you 
don't  want  that,  all  right. 

I 

Q   Can  you  tell  us  v/hat  was  paid  in  August,  1918?    A.   This  past 
August  —  well,  that  is  on  the  same  basis,  what  I  heard  men 
say  they  were  actually  paying  for  labor;  that  they  were  paying 
some  of  them  as  high  as  |70  a  month  and  others  |60,  and  on  day 
labor  they  had  to  pay  anywhere  from  |3.50  to  |4.50  a  day,  de- 
pending on  the  kind  of  man,  when  they  got  him,  and  the  kind  of 
work.   Now,  in  this  past  summer  in  Massachusetts,-  these  prices 
are  for  this  state,  so  far  as  I  overheard  men  talking  about 

I  these  things, ^ .;  ■'-' 

Q  But  of  your  own  knowledge,  stating  v/hat  has  been  paid,  you  can- 

I  not  give  us  any  information?   A.   I  aon'  t  tliink  it  is  possible 

,  for  any  man  to  say  what  the  average  wage  of  hired  farm  help  is, 

I 

any  more  than  v/hat  the  average  wage  of  the  man  in  the  city  of 
Boston  is.   One  is  as  variable  as  the  other  and  as  difficult 
to  get  at,  and  I  don't  think  any  gentleman  in  the  room  would 
want  to  stand  up  and  swear  and  give  testimony  as  to  what  the 
average  wage  in  the  city  of  Boston  is  today  or  was  last  April. 
Q   (By  Mr.  Pattee.)   You  heard  the  Ixne  of  inquiry  pursued  by  Mr. 
Commissioner  Bird  relative  to  the  farmer  getting  his  o\!vn  living 
and  thi"-"-  getting  10  per  cent  in  addition  to  what  he  called  his 
time.  What  would  be  your  judgment  with  relation  to  that  matter 
developed  by  Mr.  Bird?   A.   Well,  to  be  frank  about  it,  I 
failed,  I  think,  to  some  extent  to  get  the  relevancy  of  all 
that  discussion,  but  it  appears  to  me  that  t}ie  prices  put  m 
here  —  SI  and  33  cents  an  houi',  which  are  substantially  the 


;3B    JKam   I-  ;.Ci   I      Vi. 

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,  ..gnid*    S'-iwiii 

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j..,.oc>    iC;    vonfiVw. ..:.■':!.    t;.:^    T'T';  .ij-v;  K;.:      i:^*.-c;    c..^     j;:.-'!..^    i    «L;:€.; 


68 

sane  in  August,-  are  v/i tiiout  quastion  reasonable  charges  per 
hour  for  dairy  production,  and   whether  the  figures  on  these 
questionnaires  a.re  absolutely  accurate  or  not  nobody  knows. 
Anyone  who  wishes  to  talte  the  trouble  can  go  over  these  300 
returns  from  q^uestionnaires.   I  have  not  looked  over  them  and 
have  had  nothing  to  do  with  them.   But  I  did  assist,  at  Dr. 
Gilbert's  request,  in  going  over  those  questionnaires  for  J"\ily 
and  August,  ana  it  was  very  evident  indeed  that  it  was  impossi- 
ble to  make  any  question  on  the  questionnaire  what  you  might 
call  "fool-proof" ,  so  that  everybody  would  answer  it  exactly 
as  the  man  who  wrote  the  question  down  v/ould  want  it  answered. 
In  other  words,  it  was  very  evident  from  some  of  the  question- 
naires that  they  had  put  in  boy  labor  and  put  in  their  own 
labor  sometimes,  although  that  was  very  exceptional,  and  there 
was  a  very  wide  variation  in  the  range  of  statement  there,  which 
just  indicated  that  it  is  pretty  difficult  to  get  —  v/e  had  at 
that  time  around  2000  questionnaires,  if  I  remember  right,  that 
we  vient    over,-  to  get  2000  men  to  answer  the  same  question  in 
the  same  way;  that  is,  to  get  them  to  understand  the  question 
in  the  same  way,  and  that  is  pretty  well  evidenced,  I  think, 
by  the  military  questionnaires  and  the  difficulty  people  had 
in  filling  those  out.   So,  with  the  fluctuations  you  get  in 
prices  from  state  to  state,  you  have  to  look  over  the  question-  . 
naires,  I  believe,  and  test  the  accvjracy  in  each  case,  before 
you  can  judge  really  whether  the  average  is  reasonably  correct. 

Q   (By  Comm.  O'Hare.)   I  understand.  Professor,  that  you  had  some- 
thing to  do  with  that,  in  connection  with  this  statement? 

A  No,  sir,  not  for  this  October  mattex*.  I   had  something  to  do 
with  the  statement  for  the  questionnaire  for  July   and  August, 
I  which  was  sent  out  by  Mr.  Boutell. 

Q  Was  there  any  great  fluctuation  in  the  wages  paid  to  farm  labor 


T>  '  ■ 


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J-«.,v 


I  69 

at  that  time?   A.   On  the  questionnaires;  yes,  sir. 

Q  What  vfas  the  average  at  that  time?   A.   Well,  the  only  figures 
I  have  are  those  presented,  I  think,  to  the  Commission,  and 
for  Massachusetts  all  I  have  is  the  figure  per  hour  for  Massa- 
chusetts at  that  time,  53  cents  per  hour  for  man  labor. 

Q  How  did.  you  strike  thac  averags?   A.  We  struck  that  average 
by  taking  tlie  replies  that  men  had  made  on  these  questionnaires 
as  to  what  they  paid  per  month  v.ithout  board;  took  26  days  to 
the  month  at  nine  hours  per  day,  and  remembering  that  those 
reports  at  that  time  did  not  include  tne  question  of  what  the 
owner's  time  was  worth.  Practically  all  the  men  v/ho  reported 
on  the  questionnaires  were  giving  figures  of  what  tney  paid  for 
hired  labor  without  board  by  the  month. 

Q  '  (By  Mr.  Pattee.)   The  average  v/as  33  cents  an  hour?   A.  Yes, 
for  Massachusetts,  and  here  in  October  it  is  31  cents,  I  think, 
and  I  might  say  that  I  believe  personally  that  you  could  find 
that  difference  at  any  time.  A   year  ago,  if  you  had  sent  out 
such  questionnaires,  you  ?/oi;J.d  have  got  the  same  difference, 
because  you  wovildn't  get  the  sarno  people  to  report.   Last  year 
some  people  were  haying  in  August  and  July,  «/ere  busy  and  were 
I  anxious  to  get  help,  and  you  vrould  get  that  variation  eaaly  in 
any  year,  of  two  cents  per  nour.   I  notice  in  looking  over  the 
Chamber  of  Commerce  survey,  the  figures  for  Massachusetts,  the 
figure  for  December,  1917,  supposed  to  be  brought  up  to  date 
at  that  time,  was  28.9  cents,  against  this  October  figure  of 
31  cents,  approaching  3  cents  higher. 

Q   (By  Comm.  O'Hare.)   Do  I  understand  from  the  statement  you  have 
just  made  that  you  charge  the  labor  that  was  employed  on  haying 
or  other  farm  work  up  to  the  production  of  milk?   A,  No,  sir, 
but  in  the  questionnaire  the  question  is  askea  right  here  as 
to  the  niii'iber  of  hands  employed  per  month  with  board  and  v/ithout 


-ac.  siiLl  Tcol:   iij         .  ,       -  Xi.i-3   aJ  .to auric 4.<..a.^J:''i  'lo': 

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KJ 


"board.  This  is  for  July  and  August.  It  dossn't  say  wiietner 
they  'fiere  employed  on  haying  or  cleaning  house.  That  is  the 
question  that  was  asked,  and  that  is  all  we  had  to  tabulate. 

Q  And  it  is  charged  to  cost  of  miUs:?    A.   We  took  the  hour  rate 
from  that  statement,  furnished  at  the  time,  and  tabulated. 

Q  And  claarged  into  the  cost  of  producing  milk?   A.   We  inserted 
it  in  the  figures,  for  purpose  of  comparison,  being  made  pri- 
marily on  the  Chaitiber  of  Commerce  survey. 

Q   (By  Mr.  Pattee.)  That  is,  you  charged  the  cost  of  labor  in 
connection  with  milk  at  the  rate  that  labor  earned  during  the 
whole  day?    A.   Yes,  sir.   That  is  what  it  amounts  to. 

Q  Charged  at  that  same  rate  the  number  of  hoi^rs  spent  on  making 
milk.    A.   That  was  the  effort  made,  there.   In  order  to  get 
at  what  it  costs  a  man  while  he  spends  his  time  px-oducing  milk 
'  you  have  to  take  what  his  labor  has  cost  him  for  the  entire 
year,  month  or  day,  what  ever  unit  you  are  using  it,  and  get 
the  rate  per  hour  from  that,  and,  no  matter  what  system  a  man 
may  take  for  determining  that  —  hour,  day,  month  or  year,- 
you  cannot  have  it  absolutely  letter  perfect. 

Q   {By  Gomm.  O'Hare.)   How  much  did  you  charge  for  production  of 
milk  on  that  particular  questionnaire  you  have  there  nov»-. 
Professor?    A.   That  is,  for  Jioly  and  August? 

Q  Yes.     A.   How  much  in  Massachusetts?  ..  •,,.«-9 

Q  Well,  you  have  the  questionnaire  there.    A.   This  one  I  have 
here  is  the  questionnaire  sent  out  for  July  and  August. 

Q  V/ell,  in  the  case  of  the  particular  farmer  whose  statement  you 

have  before  you,  how  much?    A.   This  that  I  have  before  me  is 

just  a  blank  one,  a  copy  I  had  in  ray    file. 

I       Mr.  PATTEE.   I  would  call  to  the  attention  of  Commissioner 

to 
Bird^^  as  long  as  he  developed  this  line  of  inquiry ,/the  fact 

that  the  rate  per  hour  to  which  his  line  of  reasoning  would 


.  .^ ;■..'.:■.„  .  J  -  .aiatJ'l    I  i iiiH'ixiaJ xii  a   j  xus- 

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71 

object  to  adding  10  per  cent  for  managerial  ability  was,  in 
these  figures  submitted  at  this  hearing,  33  cents  an  hour  from 
Maine,  33  cents  for  Vermont,  31  cents  for  Massachusetts,  33 
cents  again  for  New  Hampshire  and  for  Connecticut,  and,  if  I 
followed  the  questions  correctly,  the  line  of  reasoning  vrould 
develop  an  objection  to  adding  10  per  cent  to  that  for  the 
value  of  the  man's  labor  in  making  milk. 

Comm.  BIRD.   In  the  first  place,  you  misunderstood  me. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   These  figures  are  the  figures  reported  for 
the  Commission. 

Comm.  BIPD.  You  misunderstood  the  deductions  I  drev/;  and, 
in  the  second  place,  I  did  not  object,  did  not  develop  a  line 
of  reasoning  against  it,  because  I  did  not  discuss  the  equity 
of  it,  one  way  or  the  other.   I  simply  wanted  to  know  if  that 
is  what  had  been  done.   If  it  had  oeen,    the  reasoning  I  de- 
duced from  it  wasthat  the  rate  of  wages  to  the  owner  was  not 
set  on  the  same  basis  as  was  originally  started  in  the  Chamber 
of  Commerce  survey,  which  was  the  day's  wage  that  the  farmer 
wovild  pay  tor  labor  plus  10  per  cent  for  managerial  ability, 
but  that  he  had  been  paid  an  additional  wage,  on  his  own  state- 
ment, and,  in  addition  to  that,  had  received  a  managerial  re- 
turn. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  beg  to  submit  that  these  are  the  wages  on 
which  these  cost  figures  are  based,  33  cents  an  hour  in  prac- 
tically in  all  thestates  here,  and  I  leave  it  to  the  good 
judgment  of  the  Commission  whether  a  man  is  entitled  to  a  higher 
percentage  than  that?    In  any  event,  those  are  the  figures. 

Comm.  BIRD.    That  is  not  the  point.   You  have  missed  the 
point.    i'rom  the  statement  submitted  here  by  Mr.  Davis,  which 
has  oeen  filed,  it  appears  that  the  average  wage  paid  tc  farm 
labor,  we  will  say,  is  ^4r5,  plus  $30,  making  an  average  wage 


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(A 

of  1 75,  whereas  the  manager  of  the  farm  receives  |99,  in  addi- 
tion to  which  he  receives  a  certain  amoimt  of  living  from  his 
farm,  say  |20,  giving  him  a  return  of  |120,  as  against  |75, 
the  prevailing  wage,  and  in  addition  to  that  he  receives  10 
per  cent  for  managerial  ability.  My  point  was  that  according 
to  the  original  survey  made,  that  amount  would  have  been  charg- 
ed in  at  ^75,  if  that  was  the  prevailing  rate  for  labor,  and 
that  ho  would  have  received  10  per  cent  beyond  that  for  manager- 
ial ability. 

Mr.  PATTES.   I  confess  that  I  cannot  quite  follow  the 
Commissioner.   It  is  probably  my  fault.   But  tne  questionnaires 
will  be  filed  themselves,  and  the  Commi scion  can  pass  on  the 
validity  of  the  evidence  itself, 

Comm.  BI5D.    I  am  not  disputing  the  thin^,  questioning 
whether  it  is  right  or  wrong,  tut  am  simply  trying  to  bring 
out  the  facts  in  connoction  with  the  figures  that  Mr.  Davis 
hap  reached,  that  a  change  has  been  made  in  the  basis  on  which 
the  10  per  cent  was  originally  accorded  to  the  farm?r  for 
managerial  ability. 

Mr.  PATTEE.  Whether  or  not  it  has  been  made,  I  simply 
call  attention  to  the  fact  that  it  results  in  an  increase  in 
the  amount  entering  into  the  price  of  labor. 

Comm.  BIxlD.  You  mean  the  average  wage,  including  himself? 

Mr.  PATTEE.   Including  himself.    I  would  now  ask  the 
Commission  to  hear  Mr.  Lull,  agent  for  some  years  in  connection 
with  typical  dairy  farm  work  in  Massachusetts,  v^rho  knows  what 
farmers  pay  for  help  and  can  ansvi^er  some  of  the  questions  ask- 
ed by  Mr.  Commissioner  O'Hare. 


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Q 


ROBERT  D.  LULL  --  Gworn. 


(By  Mr.  Pattee.)  What  is  your  full  name  and  addrsss? 

A  Robert  D.  Lull,  393  Main  Street,  Room  412,  Sawyer  Building, 
Worcester. 

Q  1  Where  did  you  formerly  live?   A.   In  Hardwiok,  Mass. 

Q   Until  when?    A.   The  first  of  November. 

Q  Hov/  long  did  you  live  in  Hardv/ick?   A.   Since  March,  1914. 

Q  What  was  your  business  in  Hardwick?   A.   My  work  in  Hardwick 
was  somewhat  in  the  line  of  county  agent  work,  only  a  little 
more  in  detail.   It  was  in  connection  with  the  adminif trgtion 
of  the  Page  ii'und  in  Hardwick,  for  the  benefit  of  horticulture 
and  agriculture,  and  my  work  was  along  educational  and  business 
lines  in  connection  with  the  farmers  of  Hardwick.  .  - 

Q  Are  you  a  graduate  of  any  college,  and  if  so,  what?   A.  THe 
Massachusetts  Agricultural  College. 

Q  Can  you  answer  the  questions  asked  by  Commissioner  O'Kare  and 
some  others,  as  to  prices  made  foi-  farm  labor?   A.   I  can  only 
ansv/er    so  far  as  my  commimity  is  concerned. 

Q  Go  ahead  and  answer  them.   A.   If  I  recall  the  questions  -- 
perhaps  Mr.  O'Hare  had  better  put  the  questions. 

Q   (By  Comm.  0*Hare.)   Just  whom  do  you  represent  here?   A.  The 
New  England  Milk  Producers  Association. 

Q  An  officer  of  the  Association?    A.   Yes,  sir. 

Q  Can  you  give  us  tl'ie  price  paid,  the  average  price  paid  for 
farm  labor  April  1st,  1917?    A.   April  1st,  1917,  the  price 
paid  for  what  we  call  a  good  quality  farm  laborer  on   farms  in 
Hardwick  was  practically  |35  a  month  with  board,  and  occasional- 
ly a  little  more,-  between  |30  and  |40. 

Q  Can  you  give  me  the  price  on  April  1st,  1918?   A.   On  April 
1st,  1918,  men  who  were  making  contracts  with  their  help  for 


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74: 

another  season  were  paying  from  $40  to  $50,  practically.   You 

would,  find  :iuite  a  discrepancy  in  that,  even  as  far  as  the  to\vn 

of  Hardv/ick  goes.   I  have  been  looking  over  the  questionnaires, 

and  one  reports  paying  $50  a  month  with  board,  and  another  $30 

a  month  with  board.   That  is  hardly  a  fair  average  at  all  of 

the  tovm  of  Hardwick.    I  know  these  two  men  making  returns  on 

the  questionnaires  and  happen  to  know  the  tv/o  men  reported  on. 

One  was  an  American  fellow,  I  should  say.  He  wasn't  a  Polish 

fellow.  We  have  Polish  help  in  Hardwick.   One  was  an  American 

fellov/,  a  bright,  active  young  roan,  getting  $50  a  month,  and 

dru^^ik 
the  $30  fellov/  was  a  Polish  fellow, /about  a  third  of  the  time. 

So  you  see  you  don't  really  get  the  average  res'olt  there  in 

the  questionnaires  from  that  tov/n.   I  had  occasion  to  have 

fellows  swear  before  me  in  regard  to  what  they  were  getting,  as 

I  help  iiiake  out  questionnaires  for  a  great  many  of  the  farm 

help  of  the  town,  as  a  member  of  the  local  advisory  board,  and 

the  amount  ran  around  $45  to  $50.   I  know  that  one  farmer  was 

paying  a  Polish  man  as  high  as  $65. 

Q  How  does  that  compare  with  the  present  wage?    A.  Wiiy,    you 

asked  me  in  regara  to  April  1st,  1918.   These  wages  are  wages 

the  men  have  been  getting  right  through  the  season.   I  think 

they  are  running  just  about  the  3a,me  now.   I  don't  think  those 

I  men  have  changed.  . -■ 

Q     Ho?/  long  has    it    been   since  there   has   been  any   increase? 

A     Well,    in   that   to\ivn  most   of   those  fellows   make    contracts   with 

their  men  beginning  along  in  the  spring,  as  a  rule,  and  the 

increase  came,  as  far  as  that  tov/n  was  concerned,  about  last 

March,  April,  along  there,  v/hen  they  were  making  the  contracts 

for  the  season. 

Q   Tell  me  what  the  increase  was.   A.   Well,  yoixr  first  question 

was,  what  the  price  of  labor  was  for  April,  1917,  v^asn't  it? 


.  i  ,  :  Soiuf   bnil  jdj.uov 

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That  vi/as  the  first  question  you  asked? 
Q  Yes.   A   .  And  I  stated,  between  |30  and  $40,  $35  and  |40; 

'  April  1st,  1918,  |45  to  $50  for  a  good  man. 
Q  And  no  increase  since  then?   A.   I  don't  think  so,  so  far  as 

that  cominunity  is  concerned. 
Q  Can  you  give  us  the  price  for  milk  paid  by  the  dealer  to  the 

farmer  last  April?    A,   I  don't  knov/  as  I  could  recall  the 

figures. 
Q  Can  you  give  us  the  figures  on  the  increase  to  the  farmer  since 

last  April?    A.   No,  I  couldn't.   I  haven't  those  figures  in 

nind. 
Q  As  I  understand  it,  you  are  appearing  hare,  giving  expert 

testimony?   A.   I  am  simply  giving  testimony  so  far  as  our 

commxinity  is  concerned.      ■•  •  . 
Q  Vi/ould  you  say  from  your  knowledge  that  the  farmer  is  Justified 
'  in  putting  tne  increased  price  for  laoor.  on  the  price  of  milk? 
A  I  have  answered  your   question  simply  so  far  as  monthxy  labor 

goes.  Now,  there  would  be  another  question  come  in  there,  in 

regard  to  the  price  of  day  labor.   .  ,  . 

the 
Q  You  have  followed  , milk  business  pretty  closely?    A.   More  or 

less.  -■■  A  ,.;:■• 

Q  I  judge  from  your  opening  statement  that  you  were  pretty  closa 

to  the  fanner  and  had  followed  the  m^.r'k.et   figures?   A,  Pretty 
close  to  him.   I  haven't  had  much  work  on  tiie  milk  business 

since  last  January.   .,  .,^, 

Q  How  is  it  you  are  so  familiar  with  labor  conditions?   A.   I 
have  been  in  the  commimity  and  have  heard  farmers  talk  in  re- 
gard to  wnat  they  paid  to  the  men. 

Q  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  the  farmers  talk  as  much  about  the  price 
of  milk  as  they  do  about  the  price  of  labor?   A.   Yes,  but 
there  are  so  many  fractions  of  cents  that  come  into  the  price 


vv  O  :<•      <  v.-  i- 


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/o 


of  millc  that  I  wouldn't  want  to  make  a  statement  as  to  tiie 
fractions  for  April.   The  prices  change  so  much  that  I  couldn't 
I  tell,  offhand. 

Q  You  mean  to  say  that  you  are  associated  with  a  group  of  farmers 
and  that  they  do  not  discuss  the  prices  of  milk  together? 

A  Oh,  yes,  they  discuso  the  prices,  Mr.  O'Hare.   I  am  not  trying 
to  hedge.   But  I  don't  recall  just  the  fractions. 

Q  You  took  the  stand,  as  I  understood,  as  a  gentleman  familiar 
'  with  the  milk  business,  and  I  am  just  trying  to  find  out,  if  I 
can,  how  familio-r"  you  are  with  these  technical  questions. 

A  I  dou't  know  as  I  just  get  what  you  want,  now. 

Q  I  want  to  find  out  your  opinion  as  to  vi/hether,  with  no   increased 
cost  of  labor,  dealers  are  justified  in  asking  for  an  increased 
price  of  milk  on  account  of  increased  price  of  labor  between 
last  April  and  the  present  time?   A.  Mr.  O'Hare,  there  are 
several  tnings  entering  into  it.   I  have  simply  spoken  of  tne 
farm  help  contracted  for  from  year  to  y-^ar.   The  day  nelp  I 
haven't  spoken  of,  at  all,  but  the  day  help  is  quite  an  item 
on  a  great  many  farms.   That  is,  there  are  seasons  when  they 
have  to  hire  a  great  many  extra  men.   The  price  for  day  labor 
I  has  in  a  great  measure  tended  to  go  up,  the  price  for  labor  to 
bring  in  and  harvest  their  crops  at  this  season. 

Q  And  you  think  the  farmer  is  justified  in  charging  for  the  help 
required  in  harvesting  the  crops,  charging  it  up  to  the  cost 
of  milk?    A.   Only  in  so  far  as  it  affects  the  high  cost  of 
that  crop.   If  yo-ar  silage  costs  you  more  in  1918  than  it  did 
in  1917,  that  is  an  increased  cost  in  milk  production. 

Q  I  Can  you  give  us  any  idea  what  that  would  amount  to?   A.   I 
couldn't  per  ton  of  silage. 

Q  ,  Per  ton  of  hay?    A.  No,  sir. 
Comm.  O'KAKE.   That  is  all. 


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I  77 

Q   (By  Mr.  Pattee.)  Mr.  Lull,  in  Kardwick  is  or  is  not  mora  or 
less  day  labor  employed  in  the  production  of  milk?   A.  Why, 
thera  is  a  great  deal  of  day  labor  employed.   Most  of  the  farm- 
ers liave  regular  hands,  but  there  is  a  great  deal  of  day  labor 
employed  when  they  are  harvesting,  in  addition  to  tlie  regular 
man.      This  additional  cost  for  day  labor  affects  the  cost  of 
milk  production,  because  it  affects  the  cost  of  farm  materials 
and  everything . 

Q   (By  Comm.  Murdock.)   The  cost  of  what  is  fed  to  the  herds? 

A  Yes,  sir. 

Q   (3y  Oomm.  Brigham. )   Is  there  plenty  of  fami  help  at  |40  to 
$50  a  month?    A.   Not  good  farm  help. 

Q  The  farmers  are  snort  of  help  at  that  price?    A.   Yes,  sir. 
Many  farmers  gave  up  trying  to  hire  help,  because  the  :iuality 
of  the  help  was  such  that  they  didnH  know  from  month  to  month 
whether  tliey  would  have  a  man  or  not. 

Q  ,  Hov/  do  the  day  wages  compare  tius  year  with  the  day  wages  of 
a  year  ago?   A.  I  think  the  day  wages  a  year  ago  were  fromi  $3 
to  $5.50,  about  |o,  whereas  this  year  the  a.mount   has  been  50 
cents  an  hour  for  an  8-hoar  day. 

Q   (By  Comm.  O'Hare.)   A  year  ago  last  April  how  many  farmers 
were  employing  farm  help?   A.   In  Hardwick? 

Q  Yes.    A.  Why,  I  naven*t  the  figures  in  mind,  but  probably 
75  to  80  per  cent  of  the  farmers. 

Q  How  many  employ  farm  help  now?    A.   Wliy,  when  you  get  down 
to  guessing  on  percentages  it  would  be  rather  hard  to  say. 
I  think  you  v/ould  find  several  men  who  did  employ  a  year  ago 
who  do  not  employ  now.    •  »  .    - 

Q  rifty  per  cent?    A.   Possibly.   You  mean  fifty  per  cent  de- 
j  crease,  or  fifty  per  cent  of  the  total? 

Q  i'ifty  per  cent  of  the  total?     A.   I  shouldn't  think  that. 


A 


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quite. 

Q  Porty?     A.  Why,  possibly  tiiat.   That  is  simply  an  estimate. 

Q  (Mr.  Pattee.)   You  were  asked  by  Mr.  O'Hare  whether  you  thought 
the  increased  cost  of  labor  since  April  would  justify  an  in- 
creased price  of  milk.   In  that  connection,  would  you  say  that 
if  milk  was  selling  at  a  loss  in  April  your  farmers  would  be 
satisfied  to  continue  to  sell  at  a  loss  now,  if  labor  iiad  not 
gone  up?    A.   No,  sir. 

Q  In  other  words,  they  would  be  justified  in  asking  for  more  money 
for  their  milk  even  if  the  price  of  labor  had  not  gone  up,  if 
they  had  been  selling  at  a  loss,  would  they  not?    A.   Very 
true. 

Q   (By  Comm.  0*Hare. )  Do  I  vmderstand,  Mr.  Lull,  by  that  state- 
ment, you  mean  to  intimate  that  the  farmers  were  selling  at  a 
loss  last  April?   A.   I  think  in  some  cases  they  were,  'dr, 
O'Kare.  .    ,  .  -        _.  -  , 

Q  What  cases?   A.   In  cases  where  the  nien  viere  depending  on  the 
hired  help  to  a  great  extent  they  were  selling  at  a  loss. 

Q  Do  you  know  of  any  farmer  personally  who  was  selling  at  a  loss? 
Mr.  PATTEE.   Yes. 
Mr.  LULL.   Y-3S,  I  think  I  do. 

Comm.  O'HArffl.   I  thought  I  was  asking  Mr.  Lull   questions, 
but  an  answer  came  from  another  section  of  the  room.   I  don't 
desire  this  witness  to  be  prompted. 

Comm.  BIIID.   (In  the  chair.)   V/ill  the  witness  answer. 
Mr.  LULL.  Mr.  0*Hare  asked  me  if  I  knew  any  farmer  per- 
sonally who  was  absolutely  selling  at  a  loss.   It  ?/ould  be  rather 
hard  to  make  a  statement  exactly  as  to  whethar  I  knsw  that  that 
was  so  or  not.   I  do  know,  however,  for  a  fact  that  there  are 
farmers  depending  on  hired  laborers,  making  milk  as  a  business, - 

Q   (3y  Gomm.  O'Hare.)   That  is  not  the  question.  Do  you  know  of 


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79 

any  farmer  in  your  community  who  was  selling  milk  at  a  loss 
last  April?  A.  I  can  answer  in  this  way,  that  there  were 
farmers  making  milk  who  were  not  able  to  pay  their  grain  bills. 

Q  How  do  you  know  that?   A.   Because  I  handled  their  grain  money. 
We  handled  the  cooperative  producing  organization  there,  and 
these  farmers  paid  money  to  me  as  manager  of  the  corporation 
organization. 

Q  Who  were  the  farmers?    A.  You  v/ant  me  to  make  statements 
here  under  oath  in  regard  to  the  f  .-armers  of  Hardwick  who  were 
unable  to  pay  their  bills? 

Q  Ho,   I  have  simply  asked  you  the  question  whethei'  you  knew  of 
any  fa,rraars  there  who  sold  milk  at  a  loss  last  April? 

A  And  I  have  told  you  that  I  have  to  fall  back  on  that  for  my 
information. 

Q  Because  a  farmer  did  not  pay  his  bills  it  shows  to  your  mind 
that  he  wasn't  making  money?  A.  Well,  if  he  couldn't  pay 
his  bills  it  shows  that  he  was  not  making  money. 

Q  Can  you  tell  the  Commission  how  you  know  he  was  producing  milk 
belovr  cost?   A.  Why,  he  had  his  other  expenses,  as  far  as  his 
Xiving  was  concerned,  and  if  he  could  not  pay  his  bills  I  would 
have  to  draw  the  conclusion  that  he  was  making  milk  below  cost 
or  not  getting  his  money  back  as  a  business  proposition. 

Q  But  you  don't  really  know  whether  he  was  selling  millc  below  cost 

I 
or  not?    A.  Not  exactly;  no,  sir. 

Mr.  OLARK.   If  I  may  make  a  statement,  not  from  hearsay, 
but  from  my  own  experience,  I  was  employing  last  year,  1917, 
men  whom  I  hired  for  §30  a  month,  and  |35  and  $40,  and  their 
house,  according  to  the  men,  giving  them  two  quarts  of  milk 
a  day,  and  all  the  fuel  they  wanted,  which  they  had  to  cut  them- 
selves, and  what  land  they  wanted  for  a  garden.   This  year  I 


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gnxcy.boiq   \i6noi^t  3nxsoi   aB  b-xo ::£':<   no   ax    ■  ^  3X    oraY 

..^■ffo^    rtsjx:?'    . ...    ...-  -  .- 

*nox.5  8XrsaioC   ui:x   t:o^  ^nGr;e"ii^ci  £   £/tJjffi   o:j-    3~[xX  fcl-^cvi-   I 
yvexi   verf^    ^t^,'/   r^is^s   er':-:"ncc    C'    n-£t;or,i:.c    c/cn   .Elxr.-   noi:  ^  3  i-rtL-rrrO    ei/'^ 

nx   vBJs   IXxv/   fc.L-sq  .tnos'^'t-q   edj-    fcn.'i    ^noxa.stiTT.ioO   &i'{;t  '.ri'jc 

.  o^:-' :/■'■', ^■:-:.  p.'z   rjnx*^-  '"      .  en^X"    :-ii^['    liinj  r^cvi'is 


Ut*  Bichmrd  Pat  t  da  <53 

r?3C.:>ffit  ?r  31.  ,3.938. 
St « tarn-ants  by 

^r,  Wiii^inaid  ilistsck  SOI 

A«je<mtit€i?5t  Hawkins  Sil 


gXHJjRlTS 


(i)  AT--fir>^g.3  00:«t  of  proiluv'ing  a  quaj-t  of  silk  l.y 

St»t3  (It5?r  Suglan^),   ti^cjst:??/ ir^l?,  tJ\m^3,   X^iO  ,   rmafv^y 

for  ^vtrni,   191?,    A?jtgy'''t-j    1*^^^^   Oct£>l:,jy  aii-  Iov^mfc>r^    IS2S  J 

(t*.)  SiMmmrj  9h3'.at  of  Aat^  ft-<:8n  mill:  prouucsiafa  prun-mtj-i 

affidavit,  Hov^oist^^y,   2*?]^,    for  l^iBS,   K^w  H^mpafeira,  ?.jr- 

ifsoiit,   MasBafhuajtti?,   CoKn-^oti^iut,   Hbod>  It.as.tK?  end  Haw 

York;   (3)  Co^iit  of  mi  lit  protection  in  ?i!ii.9SBe&.u«-itt3  for 
lo'«'-/mt3»,    ;?^1*  ;   (4^   Coat  os"  «llk  p?o-1wotio-n  In  Uiin^  for 

Hd'^ 3iHl:\5r,    li?B  ;   (5)  OosJt   of  sJlk  --roduction  Sn  ll^-^  E.!;?un- 
shlra  for  Hovrmt- jy,   ir-B  }   (6)   Co^tit  ©f  gU!"  pToduotion  in 
?3rt»ont  for  !lfjT>mV??.    i9B  j   {"?)  Oo^t  o-'  s-ilk  ■fTOctuction 
in  <lQ,nn>cticiit  for  fov    '"    i%   103S  ;   (S  )  Fiv"«f-lin<»  otJS"=ff..Kry 
of  coat  o?   f'iilk,    t-*^  ?1  .  jna  damictlon^    sru^  coat  p.^r 

buri-lrM  <?"3ig?:}t-aiii«  T>-3r  ^rwart  f*o»V;.  Ponton       -       -*  •-.      r.94 


0\    Hi    'i&iiVi.i.  1    V-^- 


ijcx.-'inoq-TOc    srl^    lo  -i-gj,-: j£.   sjk  ct  xenom  fci^q   eieursiil   er.eri.t 

.  ri  o  ±  .t£  £u  i  niJ-jiT  0 


^elli6  'n.i-  'i  oi    elcj^ruj 


XGi  "fOl   ^•.ya;^    no   ?Ioi>y    il^^i   G.:'  ^   I    j-*;;-*.:;   jjo-^  i)Xc.r    sr.v.>:-:    I   Jin.: 

JS^:"■  ■'■:rc::i:oio   zsm  t-n   wMj^i  ul/\.   noiaB.crf^roO   srf;:t   lie;?  no^  n.£L 

■.'   I   RixicF  iifl   '^£q  j-or;    blj,?oo    -^li  'ii   f,-ns   ^osnieonoo   a^t?  --^iixvtj. 

i^L:   v;rl&d   :.LLj:m  r^i-xXIta   saw  er'    ■■  ;:  sen  '  yo^ 

.1X2    ^on    :  i^I^OK'-rc    ■*  oT?      .A  S*jon  'so 

,':..:_; -5 serf  ffitOT:'!  i  or;    ^..■nf^cvtc^sJc   &  s>u'fa  \£i-  .T^filA^LO    .-rH^ 

,       :  1.    ,"i5i-{    *a;:X   nnit^>>Xmns    &xr/v    I    ^e;;nei.'Uc^xt!  avvo   v^  sicil   jud 
uiM;:i    Ln^^    (04--?  iu...:   c£|:   baa    <:i?nGi:   ^.   Oo'*.   "iol   -c'iK    I  :-,9r:i 


ow 


have  been  paying  ^50  and  |60  a  jnonth,  v/hich  I  am  paying  today, 
and  they  can  have  their  house  and  two  quarts  of  milk,  can  have 
their  fuel,  which  they  have  to  cut,  and  what  land  the  want  for 
a  garden.  This  siammer  I  have  been  paying  $4  a  day  for  men  to 
work  in  my  fields,  giving  them  board  and  loding,  where  last 
year  they  had  .|?..50  and  $3.   This  year,  even  at  |4  a  day,  and 
board  and  lodging,  I  have  lost  a  dozen  men.   It  shows  that  even 
at  that  price,  $4  a  day,  with  board  and  lodging,  they  are  dis- 
contented.  They  will  leave  you  at  that  price.   It  doesn't 
make  any  difference  today  how  well  you  use  a  raa^n  or  what  you 
do  for  him  or  what  you  pay  him,  he  will  leave  you.  My  men 
report  at  five  o'clock  in  the  morning,  have  half  an  hour  for 
breakfast,  and  an  hour  at  noon,  and  quit  at  six  o'clock  at 
night,  and  get  $4  a  day  and  board  and  lodging,  and  then  they 
will  leave  you.   That  is  the  condition  with  us  today. 

Mr.  PATTEE.   I  would  like  to  call  the  attention  of  the 
Commission  to  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Moses  Page  of  jiardwick, 
who  is  a  farmer,  and  who  is  on  record  as  losing  money  producing 
milk  in  that  towTi. 

Chairman  BIHD.   Any  further  questions.   (llo  i-esponss.) 

I  would  like  to  make  a  statement  for  the  Commission. 
The  Comm.ission  v/ill  now   adjourn  to  convene  again  when  they  have 
the  costs  from  the  dealers  under  the  accounting  system  as  pre- 
scribed by  the  Commission,  and  the  present  price  will  stay  in 
effect  until  that  time.  The  meeting  is  adjourned. 

(Adjourned,  subject  to  the  call  of  the  Chairman,  at  4.32 
o'clock  P.M.)' 


OS   ne-ftr  10 1  ^£1  -Y^  need   ev£,ri   i  if  .nsi*'::. 

J:r: ..    t'C-sfe   £    ^^    J.S   nf".-->    (-'^ev    eiuT        .6-    jcnji   uc.:i.<,   jj'...   \£.-i,J    i-s&Y 

*^ '"'    f      "'71'  I".     '  "  rv  T  .— '  •  i  •  :>"  ■*         '•■.r,.    •■-.*'        Ci^,*r'V       1'  14      •^T^'iOro"' 

sv^ii   vsd-if    nf;^;.v  ni ^3;;   or:f:vnoc    ot   n-t^roQJ:^    ivcn  llic^' 

:■:.    --jiss   LS.x.cr  ecxiq   frnc^'^'-iv    er'j    fca^:.    ,     ■-.:— insioO   eil^    ':cf   bsci-ics 

'■.'^.:^    ?j^    (ri.!C,::'rx:.iiO   erij-   1o   Use    sdi    o.j    r^cet'^'^'s    tt^en-ii/oj;,.:.;*) 


Stat.)ra.>nts  ly  Page 

llr.  Picha^a  Pattys  i53 

My,  C.   Oliv'jr  Walll^j^ton  1.51 

Mr.  1?0Fln8l<i  A»tack  SOI 


(i)  .A'«r3r>ag3  00:55 1  of  pro^jolng  a  qimi't  of  'a ilk  ty 
Stata  (Io?r  Sn^land),    B^cmt ^r,   1017,   Jim^s,    1*^13,    aurr^y 
for  ,y\jnj,   19^,    4?AgU'^t.,    ^-^^  Detol:.^^  a:ii--  |lo^.^?KE-;r^    l^B  i 
(?')   SiSNTr^ayy  sha^^t  of  ;?,a.t#  fror?r  silk  proiim-^ra  py3e.>nt'j5d 
BffMmlt^  Tlmmt-^t,   }9Mi   for  l*i?s;s,   iav?  Um^ifshiro,  ?^r~ 

Ycrk|   (3)  C&fA  of  rail'  pro:-.tmJtioK  in  Maa@aelmtt3tts  for 
lor->«itar,    191*;   (41   Coat  «f  mi  Ik  pftJdtiet  io-n  in  Mv^i«^  for 
HoiP3mt-5T4    K:'^  i   (5)  Cost  of  milk  T'WO(m<2tion  in  !J:3-"  IliSir*- 
shtra  for  Ho'V^m'c-iTi   l^B  j   (6)   Ottnt  ^f  sU!"  prodtiction  in 
^^yffiont  for  ioT>sife^?yf    19B  i    (?)   Ooat  o-'  B\iik  -to Auction 
in  nonn-3<!tieu*  ^or  foV'3ff*=;fr,   l^B  ;   (8)  Fiv-^s-lina  ji«jr^:^iyy 
or  co0t  of  rilk,   t."-:3lft^-  3ona  damjctionj   s?xd  coat  p.^t 
h%m^''T^'i  v^sigrit  artil  p-iv  mitkTt  f*o«V..  Fontou       -        *  ■-.      r*94 


81 


Bo£5m  427,   State  Ko-use,   Boston, 

Monday*  December  S3,   1913. 


Hearing  bsfora  jfedsral  Milk  OonsnisRion  in  rs  milk  price« 

beginning  January  1,  1919. 


Present  r      Oosimiscisnerg  ilOKBiS,   SA^TsB,   O'HAPj;  a.rid  JOH0AS. 
ileesre.    SBATlP,   CUSICK,   OLAEK  and  PATTHS,   were   also   pressnt, 


Somsj.   MCFRIS,    in  calling   the  hearing   to  ord^r  at  11.25 
a.su,    spoke   as  follovs^s:  .:  .^;^   j 

Centlsffi'sn,    It   appears  fi^cm  a  sonf ert-nce  ?/lth  I'rr   ?a.tt^s 
and  twx)  of   ths  nen  represontins  soma  of   the  l-s,rger  daalers  that 
I  csrt-ain  figures  of  exp^srts,   ani  so  fortJi,  which,  w«re  ^a-^^sctad 
to  b:s  rea:ly  at  this   tiaj,   '*.^ili  nc-t  he  ri-adfj,      it    is  "9  vi^y  dasir- 
atle   on   tiie  part  of   the  Ccrjimla^ion  that  those  tis^rss  bd'    in 
3hap3t  fer  cxrxjful  sjxsusinatlon  of  thd  Oomsiitssion  ^rior    to  fixing 
th«  pfioee  for  threes  months,-  Jan^^ary,  If^bruary  ^nd.  March,   if 
the  locmission  ahovild  deci.is  to  fix   tiie  pric  a  .for   that  length 
of  time.     Thorefors    the  hearing,   so  far  as  thu  figurys,    and 
probably  the  price  fixing  Tor  January,  will  be    cantinu&d  to 
Monday,   D^jcesaher  30,    at   tifo  Q*clocie   in  t5i«  afternoon. 

Th«ro  arc  sorn^  othsr  .'OE'-ttorc  that  psrhai?s  mi^'ht  properly 
t)0   Alccuessd,    if  yo\i  dosire   any  discusoion  on   th&a,    at    this 
tiffio.     I  ?.a5  not  present  cit  the  last  pricrf  fi>-ing  psj'iod,   but 
I  tm^- c?rrt t>od  from  the  racord  that   the  prices  of  railk  for   tii«s 
aonth  of  December  ^ae   to   be   tha   naaie   a*?  for  th'=^  sionth  of  Novti-ni- 
bar,  'yhloh,   of  cou:-5«,   inoludwG  tha  handitus  of   tii^  surplus   the 
g.-^ae  as  it  wnsh'indlod  in  l^ovL^mbar-.      I    aaaun-j   that    th7.t   is  so. 


■ti    iu 


"«i'.. 


'u. 


82 

but  if  anyone  wants    to  t>e  heard  on   that  luestion  «e  wo^d  be 
glad  to  ho-ir  from  tham  now. 

Mr,  CUSIOK.  W«  a^cidadiy  object  to  that.  I  ^iii  try  and 
state  how  I  think  the  surplus  waa  handled  in  November.  I  will 
r-^ad  from  the  raport: 

•The  Producers,    under  the  siirpliis  plan  as  now  in 
force  shall  receive  for  all  of  their  miHs.  9-3/4  counts 
per  luart  f .o.b.  Bonton,   less   the  zone  freight,   plus 
the  war  tax  and   th3  can  and  country  charges  asagrviod 
upon,  with   the  preraium  for  butt-sr  fat  of  four  o-^nts 
per  point  in  excess  of  3.5  per  cent.,   if  wny,   or  the 
rsduction  for  butter  fat  of  four  cents  per  point  be- 
low 3.5  p^r  cent.       There  shall  be  no  reduction  from 
the  above  price  for   the  laontii  of  IJovaaber  on  account 
of  surplus.* 
How,   if  I   underetanl   triat  right,   you  simply,   arbitrarily 
stats   that    that  price  is  made   ^aid   there  shall  ba  no  surplus, - 
no   consideration  of  the  surplus  plan  in  the  month  of  5cv'^aber. 
Kow,    on  Sovsmber  IQ,    tha  first  taio'^ledge  ^^  got  of   it,   ive 
received  a  ocxiffisunlcation  which  says: 

*That  the  surplus  plan  be  so  aa«ndS(d  that  from 
the  voluas  of  surplus  aiUs:  a  trade  surplus  of  five 
per  cent  of  the  total  volum=  of  v»hoie  milk  sold  be 
deducted  from  the  total  surplus,  and  tha  rsiaaind^^r 
b©  treated  as  the  net  surplus  to  be  djalt  with  as 
provided  in  the  stirplus  plan.* 
I  How,   you  can  readily  see   tiiat   that   is  absolutely  Inconsist- 

ent.    I   supposed  at  the  tima   tha^   this  ^^as  d-jcided  upon   :ind  made 
! 

a  vote   

OOBBH.  wyKins,     What  is    the   d&U   of   that? 


i,.:y 


i.^ 


>  -'■■•  ■-' 


8$ 

Mr,   aUSIOK.     It  i8  dsttsd  Nov-im&er  18  —  is  wjfien  we  got  it. 

It  saya  ii^re,   ■Votes  paesad  by   the  it'ederal  Milk  Co^aission  for 
Sew  Kngl^^d,   teadnasday,  October  23,   1918. » 

No^,    if   that  is  so,   we  Icne-w  nothiriiS  about  it  whatsoever. 
Our  first  knowlsdg©  of    Uiis  five  per  c-^nt.   vias   the  let^&r  — 
and   I    tliink   that  ie  admit  tad  by    ths  Ooasmission,    too  —  v^blch 
we  racQived  or  Hovemfoar  18.      At    that    tiae   you  contemplated,   of 
course,   aisQcing   th--  pries  lor  O^Gmxber.      Th'^n  on   account  of   thd 
absence  of  figures,    if.nd  so   forth,   no  price  sas  mad^  for  Dec^a- 
tosr,  but   the  Ooaaraittse  rulei   that  iaatt»ra  rsKain  ia  s tu tu     juo 
until  fiirthtir  dir^otion  of    t  oij    ::oisraission.     2<"0i^,    of   ooursa, 
thi^re  ha.3  b.3C>n  no  further  direction  of   tha  Ooiaoaissioa,    jnA   tha 
facts  are  that  in  Decaffifosr  we   ar?j   goins  to  have  a  substantial 
surplus.     W-3   cannot  deduct  that  five  par  o^mt.,   which  ia    o.illad 
trad'3  surplus,   in  our  pric&s  for  iJeeumbir,    bv;caufie  no  pric«fi 
were  made,    ^m'l   therufora   it  oo'uld  not  0-:;   considor&d  in   th© 
'  pries   tjrxat   was  ja^de.     Now,   you  do  not  raaun  to   a^v  us    to  Ciirry 
th©  surplus  at   th^  saais  price,-  9-3/4  cants,-  for  Ddcaza'o&r. 
If    that   is   the   ruling   of   th^  Board  ^s  objoct   strsnuouely    ouid 
ask   for  a  hearing  on    that.      Is    thsit  your  position,    Mr.   Ihiting? 

Mr.   OfiAllLSS  WhITIifG.      Yss. 

Hr«   OUSIO^.     You  eas,    it  ie  rather  an  embarrassing  situ- 
ation. .       ..•  .    - 

C^oam.  MOBT?IS.     Well  Dr.   Qii.bert,    about  «hat  ¥/as   th«  sur- 
plus for  Kov^abirr?     Vou  havin't  any  figuri^s  for  :3aC'33iber,    I 
priisuas? 

Mr.  OILBSBT.      ¥o,   I  haven't   any  for  D-acarabc-r.     Tho  7>'hiting 
Comp'i.ny's  approxijeattsly  9  par  cant, 

Coisai.  iiOm-s'13.      It   wouli  ba   only  four  par  o^nt.    to  b^s   car- 
riad   to  surplus.     iiOA  miish   cr^iator  will  it  be  for  Jjssiiabar  than 


':.    ,i 


■'..-..:-•,       ■■-  <•■•      V       .■ 


.,;■.:,;..'*   -i   s- 


64 

that? 

Mr.   aUSIOK.     i^.  Whiting,    can  you  glva  m&  an  idea  what   the 
•urplijus  v»iil  be?     Asaumxng  it   was  nine  per  cent  in  tfovtiaber, 
what  is  your  btj?^t  ji*i®Bb2nt  as  to  Beceaber? 

Mr»  WKITIWG.      It  will  be  oonsidarably  larger,     i'ifty  per 
cont.  lirger,    I   should  say. 

Mr.  OUSIOK.      Sell,   express   that,   plaase, in  a  porc^ntage. 
About  fourtsan  per  cant? 

Mr.   WHITIHG.        Yes. 

Mr.  GUSIOK.     About  thirteen  or  fourteen  psr  c^int,   surplus 
in  DeCi^JtQbsir.      Now,  Mr.   Chairmjui,    th-si   point  is   that  we  have   no 
price  in  which  is  absorbed   that  five  p^r  cent,    trada  surplus 
as  yet.     You  see,    there  is  tine   trouble,   b^caus-j   no  price  vas 
made  for  December. 

Ooaiffi.  SAWYEB.     You  consider   triat   th@  spread  is  not   suffi- 
cient  to   take   care  of   tha  five  par  cont? 

Mr,  OUSICK.     Oh,   no,   it  cW  '-.         And  it  ^as  not  figured 

I 

srith  that  in  vi©»,   because'  this    thing   cams  subseiusntiy,   when 
you  contemplated  making   the  prica  for  Docasabsr. 

Oowm*   W^IS»     I   do  not  3c now  just  exactly  what  was  said 
or  dons  at  that  meeting.      Prior   to    the  Movuaber  hsarins,   as  I 
recall  it,   it  was      true  that  ^e  tooi  into   sonsideratioa 

the  spread  with  tha  idea  of  a  fiv©  per  cant,   trads  surplus  for 
the  month  of  Hovaabsr. 

Mr.  OUSICK.     Not  prior  to  Hoveaber.     It  was  the  straight 
surplus    than.     The  straight  surplus  as  you  gantleiasn  — — 

Oocan.  MOB'RIS.     Wall,   wasn't    that  lat-^r.  Dr.   Trilbert, 
enrittan  in  referonca    to  the  action  that  was  taken  —  perhaps 
you  were  late  in  g,ttin,s  it,  but  it  was  written  in  rsfdsrenco 
to   ths  T^ovembar  situation. 


i 


— .  ,t  ^. 


Xq*su 


m 


'sci'sq  ^ 


85 

Dt,  aiLBSOT.      The  letter  which  Mr.  Gusick  speaks  of,   aat»d 
Sovem&er  16  or  18,   was  lata  in  getting  out.     Th-xt  is   toe  point. 
Of   course,    -ifttsr  the  hearing  of  October  23,  whan  the  price  vyas 
fixed  for  Novamber,    thare  were  verbal  announcams^nts.     That  is, 
w©  talked  it   over  with  the  various  parties.     But    the  formal 
announcement  did  not  get  into   their  hands  until    the  middle  of 
Hovember  baoauss  the  Secretary  did  not  have  tiae   to  get   it  out. 

Mr.   CiUSIOy:.     The  Shairmaji  of  the  Comiaission  at   that  meet- 
ing wrote,    or  stated,    that  there  would  be   no   change   in  the 
surplus  plan  at   that    time.     '&'e   und^srstood  that  at    that   time   the 
surplus  plan  was  going  throxigh  until   th^  1st  of  January,    so   that 
we  would  have  a  six  months*   period  to  decide  what  %as  the  better 
eoursa    to  pursue  ov<?n  in  regard   to    the  five  per   cent,    trade 
surplus.        Nov*,    if  you  have  got  your  records  you  feill  find  that 
Mr.  Allen  stated  that. 

Coram.  MCHBIS.     I   rsmeabsr;   you  are  absolutely  ri|^ht.     Mr. 
Allen  caase   in  here  and  he  had  not  heen  present  at   the  tixecutive 
meetings.     Ke  had  not  consulted  with  other  xaembers  of   the  Oom- 
mission  and  in;advisedly  he  made  his  statement  of  what  you  say. 
But  I  thought   that  was  corrected  later. 

Mr.  CUSIOK.      It  was  only  oorrected  by  that  letter  of 
Hovaiaber  18,    and  of  course  we   took  it  up  with   tha  Secretary, 
»e   tooK   it  up  with   the  Oommission  hers*,    :xnd   then  subseiuently 
when  the  Oonssinsion  decided   the  prici^s  would  remain  in  statu  _ 
^uo  until   tl-iese  figures  were  produced,   I    thsn   took  it   up  per- 
sonaH'"  %-ith  Mr.   Bird  and  -^r,  Gilbert,    and  I   *as  unable   to  find 
out  ^ust  exactly  what    the  Bitu:ition  was.     ?h©   last  word  I  had 
with  Mr.   Bird  was  that  he  would  telegraph  the  Executive   :;om- 
isittae  and  find   out  what    their  views   ware.     And   I    tnink,    as   the 
result   of    that,   Hr,   Gilbert  telephoned  me    that    their  vie?<a  were 


8i/Iqi«e 


■■,^.:-!iK     a^;!.v-f 


?^.;,'v.'--^    5. 


I?r!:cw-  ,-; :;,^'i,    &:i':    .  ,  53*; 


86 

that  there  would  be  a  five  per  cent,  trade  surplus  figuriid  for 
the  month,  of  Jscti-fflbdr  and  that  €'ie  surplus  v^ould  be  the  amount 
that  &xC:i&dL&d  that.     Am  I  right,   '^r.   Gilbert? 

Dr/  OUBEBT.      Partially. 

Coaam.   M0H:-JIS.      The  first   part  is   ail  right. 

Dr.    GILBEl??.      It   i^as  dicided   that   there  would  be   a  trade 
surplus  for  DacesaDsr  the  sane  as  for  TJov-araber.     And    than   the 
Executive   CouEoittsa  r'Splied   to  ^r.  Bird*s    telsgr.am  to  wait  un- 
til tha  percentage  of  surplus  had  b^en  figured  out  for   thi  vari- 
ous daolsrs  for  Ifovembdr. 

ilr,  GUSICy..     Of  course  you  -iid  not    tell  ma   that. 

Br.   aiI3ET?T.        That  has  bean  dona   only  within   tha   last   day 
or  so. 

CJQiam.  MOBBIS.      I   rem'ss^er  my  reply    to    the  tales^-am  T;as   tliat 
as   to   the  fiva  par  cent,   surplus,  I   thought  if    there  «-as  any 
doubt  about  it   that   it    should  be  settled  at   the  huarlng^ 

I*r*    'JII.BIPT.      That  is  ?/hy  it  is  brought  up  now. 

Mr.  CUSIOK.      I  %-ova.d  suggest  this,  Mr.  Ohairaixn,    as  being 
tbs  best  thing  we  can  do  at    this  tiiaei   for   this  pr-jssnt  body 
to  make  no  stateasant  in  re.^^ard   to   that   situation,   and  aft;;r  the 
figures  are  in  we  can  tals.e  that  whole   thing  up.     That  sill  be 
in   tirae  to    tr^at   the  Decombor  situation* 

Com:?-*  MO!???IS.  Vour  idaa  is  that  this  lu-setion  could  pro- 
perly lay  ovor  imtil  ths  hearing  of  tlis  30 th,  and  by  t.nat  time 
wo  will  Ifvnoa'   soa«whare  near  what   tha   surplus  will  amount   to? 

Mr,   CUSIOi:.     Will  y.nos  bsttsr  what  it  v;ill  be. 

Mr.  1I01??IS.  Of  course  ¥*«  do  not  vvant  to  injurs  anybody. 
Wq  want  to  be  fair  to  everybody;  it  was  unfortunate,  perhaps, 
that  it  v»as  not  made  plain  at  that  tias.  "^r.  Pat  tee,  what  do 
you  say  about  dafi^rring  ooncidaration  of  this  question  of  sur- 


..,-*      '  r  .\ 


87 


plxm  for   the  month  of  D-^ camber  iintil   th&n-s  flares  ara   in  omd 
we  Eieet   again  on   the  3v0th? 

Ur,  PATTKS.     If   the   thing  must  be  opened  up,    it  may  as  well 
bs    then.      It  could  probably  be  more?   intellig^^ntly  handled  then. 
I  I   would  say,  hOT&ever,   that  «e  hav^s  undoretood  and  acted  on  the 
presujaptittn  tiiat   the  pric©  iiieant  wh-itt   ths  farmsr  was   to  set.   It 
was    &D   bo   t^i'i  aaaui. 

CoffiBa,  U0HEI3.        Your  pcint    is   that  when   tJ>3  Oommlnr.ton 
announciii   tliat   the  conditions  would  reaain  ths   sam^a  tmtD„  furth- 
er ordoi-8  froza   tlie  Oorwaission,-   that  la,   at   the  HoVi^Eabar  hear- 
ing —   that    that  caxried  the  saae  oriar  in  rufarencs   to   siirplus 
that  prevailed  in  T^ovsmber? 

ar»  PATTSS.        Absolut-sly. 

Mr,  0U3iaK.»     iir-   Ohairmrm,  say  I    ask  l^r.   Pattee  a  question? 

Oorsat.  II01?T?IS.        Y0S.  .     ,    . 

Mr,   OISBIOY*     Mr.   Pattgs,    is   it  not    true   that  y-rm   ccrarauni- 
cat0d  with  the  S-5«cri-tary  of    Cais  Coj^siEaion  -^na   that  j^-otj  stat-jd 
j  t^t  yeu  ^isr^  very  jsuch  in   the  dark  aa  rsgards   tho  rulinf^  of 
tha   :3cxi®£isoion  on  th-^  roat*:ar  yf  euvjlixB,   on  B^eesibar  13,   and 
inquired  ®hat  it  really  maant? 

Mr.   PATTSS.      That   is    luite   true, 

Hr*   aUSIOK.      T}i«>n  ho-«  do  -/ou  rtjconsiia   that  with  what  you 
iiava   juat  told   the  Ohair^an? 

Mr«   FATTIlS.       And  i  ask-sa   tha  OoaEniasion  if  any   sffort  had 
baan  .uada  on   ths   part   cf   the  dealers  to   ssdr.   any  oth~jr  con- 
struction,  .-and  was  inforciwd  by  him  tiaat  another  construction 
iiad  been  sought,   and  I   infcnaed  hia  by  latter   that  if  that 
matter  were  raised  we  wanted  to  be  hsard. 

Mr»  CUSiai..     Weil,    thyt  is  all  right, 

Cosa,   WBiMS,     I    think  wa  will   dofar   that    question,    ttian, 
until  th@  figur<3S  are  ail  in  on    ^he  30th.     Is   tho  re  any  other 


b-ii&Xi^. 


,:jyf:    /H^- 


-tvf*  \  ^T  ' 


t'     ''.;..■'■'■>. 


:-X 


t-i^r-'t-^^jSll 


4-.-  ^i,?- 


88 

matter  on   the  part  of  --my  daaier  who  <iosir«*a    to  \>e  heard  th.i« 
morning;   or  is   there  anyone  representing  the  public  hare   that 
desirss   to   be  heard  this  morning,    or  on   tha  part  of  the  pro- 
ducers? 

Sr.  yriANK  B.  CL.Km*  I  ^^int  to  state  that  the  Producers 
und'isratood  that  the  Dso3mbar  pric-s  was  to  bo  tho  sama  as  for 
TTovembsr.  Row,  I  ara  a  ehippar  to  the  New  York  raarkst,  and  I 
want  the  Boston  dealers  to  realize  hare  that  tha  Hew  YorV-  aar- 
ket  is  way  ah^ad  of  the  Boston  aariist.  And  if  we  take  into 
considoration  the  surplus  in  the  D3C  rober  price  our  Ne«  England 
producarTB  are  going  to  be  way  behind  tha  F^w  Yoirk  morlcet,-  a 
spread  that  is   entiraly  imr^-asomable. 

ComEi,  M0IP:?IS.     Wall,   -ve  of  course  ae  a  Comaaistjion  will  not 
consider  the  Hew  York  market   at  all,     lir.   aiar>:,    if  your  organ- 
ization expeots  help  from  this  aorsaission  thay  must  not   desert 
thc^  Boston    and  of    it  either.     We  hcid  a  lot  of  evidanoe  har« 
Saturday  aftomoon  from  dealers   around  llaonhester,  IJaw  Haaip- 
shire,   of   tixe  f-xriasrs  cutting  prices   there,   which  aid  not   sat- 
iofy    the   Ooaaission  v^ry   -veil,    u.nd  we   rire  s^ing  to  pass    those 
papers  ovsjr  to  your  ?\3sociation   to  cheek   up   and   stjQ  wh-sther  thsy 
have   beT;n   doing  it,      I   feel   that  you  shoiild  hold    the  asmbers  of 
your  Association  up   to  the  sarao   degree  of    care-   in  carrying  out 
the  9oia2ii3aion*s  prices   and  not  letting  thsia  desert   the   situ- 
ation  that  w9  are   trying  to  hold  the  dealers  to.      Is   there   any- 
thing els3?      (Ho  response.)     Then   tha  hearing  xa  adjourned  un- 
til   tha   50th  day  of  D^cambsr  at   two  o'clock   in   tha   aftsrnoon. 

(The  hearing  was  adjourned  at  11,40  a.m.  Im- 
msdiat-jiy  after  the  adjourninsnt  Chairman  All«n  ar- 
rived.       The  hearing  was  re-opened  at  12.03  p.m.) 


/   -■■,  •  f* 


f;    v5    CI 


C    OV-: :: 


4 


i 


QoasB.  IIOBHIS.     Chairman  Aiisn  has  eomathini:  to  pr^aaat 
Dsfors  -so  aisband   tiais  sorning. 

Chairman  ALLSS.     I  oa  sorry  taat  I   wag  la.ia   in  getting 
hers.     A  tvjlegram  has  coso   in  from  tht?  jfood  Adsiinistratian  in 
Waehir^ton,  wJaxch  r-oade  as  feiioas; 

•Wiring  aii  adsinistrators  aig^ning  of  araistice 
atsctfixng  virtual  psacs  bring©   to  an  ^ind  isaaiy  activitiyo 
et   'Che  -e*oo{t  Auiainxstra^ioa,    tht3r-^f:or&  it  i^  not  d^-aed 
odvisaftid  for  roprt?gsntatiV;#s  of  i'ood  Aaisinistration 
to  particxpata  or  jseciiate?  in  Goni'arsnc©  rtjgarding 
SiJJE.  priSrfS   J>»yoad  aatr  of  expiriition  curr^snt  outstuna— 
ing  agreeaants." 
As   this   cali5,sras»  is  intsrprs^^-^jd  07   tiitS  QosEaigaidn,    u.n  viti* 
of   th^  warrant   undatr  -J^Mah  '■?«•»   ars  f?orkins,    ana   in  vi-s-ts  of   tne 
jaexsorondua  -latt^d  Mov,.:m"Oir  22,   sign«?d  by    bia   Producers  and 
iJeaiars,   Judsiag   tii^t   tae  Qosssission  sontinuw  £Qr   ta*  p&riod  of 
tlxx'i^a  i:K3nth&,   Jiuv^j^T'j  1,   i;#iy,   tQ  April  1,   ivi9,    it  wouia  Si^em 
as   though  Uiis  G-os«ai3si'm  scula  f aAriy  sa^et   and  sat   priev;g  for 
th«2  a^xt    Ihri'S^  raontlis  pssriod.      i*   gous   -without  sayin.j    that    this 
is  probably   ths  last  sisetiag  &f    tii-^  S'sdsrai  Mili.  Ooi^aiseion  of 
Saw  England.     Uu  sh,Ov_ld  want    to  put   tliis   up   to  Vashinrtcn   ;ind 
gat  ii  d-^finit-ii  ruiisg  in  vi-.^w  ol  this    tQlai^Tii^,   v^'  jch   ivouid 
taadoubtsdiy  b«  I'avorabls  inasmucti  as  th;    tisiegran  says  •out- 
stajidin^r  agj-^^ifiienta.''        In  UiscuguinM-   this  m.':ittir  with    ths 
QoffiSiisoionj  w.^   thought  it  only  fair   to   r-^acl   ti-xis   t-^lazvism  and 
to  say   to  i'ou  msn   tlr^t  it  iy   tha    desir--   of    tha  Oosjniission  fthan 
Yfj  ieiiV^    ^he   joD   to  iaravi   it    in  such  a  -sf^y    that  ^3  not  only 
aavt'  siiiitevar  goo  a   things   ths  Ooi&aisaion  haa  bsson  abia    to  do, 
tout  i.1'  poasibl©  put  in  soa*-  sonatruotivii  program  ior    thu  futurd, 
Qo  fir  as   tlia   Cosuaiscion  can  do    tiiat.      Ana.  if   tha   parties   to 


A-'      i<  -    J       .,:--■■  1 


$0 

the  agraeasnt  feal  that   that   is   the   b#ot  way  to  do   it,  T^hy  we 
frill  wire  Washington  and  try    md  gat  such  a  ruling-      On  the 
oth&r  hand,    the  Coramiaaion  has  got  to   stop  eom-^ftime,      it  eay  b^j 
that,    and  you  might  feel  that  we  could  stop  now,   bsjfore  Janu- 
ary 1;   formulate  some  plan  wher-^by   soieething    could  bs  done  for 
the  best  intar-jsts  of   both   isidas  and  stop  January  1  instead  of 
naxt  April  1.     As  I   see   it,  I    thirfic  it  sovld  be   bettsr   to   talce 
a  lonfar  tiroe    than  January  1,   when  pricaa  ara  fixed  for   th® 
ndxt  throo  montha  —  if  such  is   the  ruling  —  and  both  sidas 
would  then  hava  thrse  montiie'    tisia   to  woj^-t  out  soasthin^  for 
the  future.     But  thers   is  no   -juastion  in  the  minis  of    ths 
CoiiBnission  that   this  is   the  last   tiiaa    that    tha  Oonaaission  \sill 
sit,  bscausa  if  vie  do  fix  prices  for  tho  next   three  months   th^y 
■afill  bs  fixed  about  January  1,    and   that  will  be?  tim  last    tiias. 

Coas®,  MOB'RIS.     Pardon  rs-.^  for  a  su^^tjstion.     Thar©  ai,^t 
b0  a-^etings  with  the  Sxaoutive  Cojiraitt09,  or  portions  of   ths 
Ooa^isaion,   if  any  questions  arose  during   the  thi^s  months 
period?  ■ 

Ohairraan  ALLETT.     Oh,   y-is,   yss«     But  I  m-jan,    this  wox^d  bs 
the  last  BjQsting  of  priea  fixing.     Are  there  any  suggestions 
from  ths  Producors  or  the  Dealsre? 

Ooaas.  1I0I?T*IS.  Perhaps  yeu  woiild  lilte  to  sea  the  tele- 
gram and  the  agreement,-  tha  wordinr  of  it.  (Papers  handed 
to  Mr.  Sears. ) 

Mr,  CUSIC3K.     Well,   you  want  tiiie   thing   to  30  on  until 
April  1,   don't  you,  Mr.   Sears? 

Mr,   SSABS.     We  have  signed  an  agreom^nt  to   th  it  efftict, 

Mr.  OUSIGK.     Mr.   Ohairaian,   I    think  I   can  safely  say,   as 
far  as  all  th^  doalers  signatori-'S   to    that  agreamant  are   con- 
comsd,   that  w®  think  it  is  only  right,   it,  is  a  matter  of 


,a 


^'   •':.:•    ^^.'.iiii.'r^^  an  l-&?rJ.?. 


91 

Jii8ti03,    that    this   Comsiiseion   sh.ouJ.ct   continue  until   tha  31st 
day  of  March  or  th^   1st   of  April.      It  certainly  is  unfinishisd 
business  as  conlaBQJlated  by  th^a  taidgrtau.     jPurthermorj,   your 
prices  hive  been  ai;ide  with  &  view  of  at  least  a  continuation 
for  QOSRn   time^  as   therQ  is  a  gensrcil  clfeaning  up   to  be  aads. 
It   isovld  alffios*-   bs  a  catas trophy  for   ttie  OojEsission  to  stop 
January  1  under  present  conditions,    and   I    can't  conceive  that 
Washington  ^-ould  do   *.hat  fittingly,      I  would  almoet    tiiir^   that 
you  would  not  try  to  gat  a  ruling  from  Washington  under   ths 
prasint  conditions  but  would  assuiBd   that   the    telsgram  mscnt 
what   it  eaid. 

Ohairsan  ALLSH,     Well,  wo  undoubtedly  tirill,      I    aaid  ss 
would   take  it  up  with  Washington.      I    'hink  ws  vvill  tail  Wa.sh- 
in,i:ton  that  »s  have   rscisivod   this   tala^jr^ia  ana    that   according 
to  our   ai^T'ieaient  vsith   the  Uaalars  and  Produosra  wa   are  fixing 
prices  for  the   next   thra^  months, 

Mr,    :-USI3E.     Tiuxt   is  fine»   and    the  reason  X   said    that 
about  Waahinf=:ton  is  this:   I  have   haeyn  ths^re  within  seven  or 
eight   days;    tha   condition   is  chaotic-      3o   raany  rte.n  rc-sigfilng 
that  were  faniliar  »ith  thse-e  conditions ,    that   if  you  undwr- 
tool£    to  get  a  ruling  from  man  not  f.rsnili:»r  with  th>;   conditions 
they  might  not  be  abla   to  put  the  weight  to    the  situ-atlon  which 
the  aen  *ho  h:2,ve    oaen  viritjo    the   situation  for    th3   last   year 
could.       So   that  I   thinjc  it  wouJ.d  be  fln^  for  you  m^n  to  stand 
by  us   and  assxas^   that   that   is  what    that  maans   for    ths   naxt 
txiree  months.        In   the  nrj-^antiae,  «e  are  going   to  g.-Jt   soas   sort 
of   ragulation  in  rog.'s.rd  to    the    industry.     'S«  hop-s   to  s-je   aosss 
of  you  f  ello's'^fs   again  sven   if  you  do  no',   cotso   froia    th^  Jood 
Administration-        I    'jje  speaking   now  for  ny   cli^-'nts   also, 

'20mm,   MCRT^IS.        You    i/iinK    that    ths   fair  intarpra tation 


'!•..>     ..■O'l 


92 


of    t-'iQ  t  jlerram  ie  that  we  woiiid   be  expectod  to   con^.inua  diiring 
the  period  of   Uila  a^-aQxnsntt   '^^  y"u,  Mr,  Cusick? 

itr.   OUSIGK.      I   should  say  so. 

Ottam,  MOBTMS.     That  woiiid  be   your  ruling  on  it? 

Mr.   aUSIOr.     I   shoiild  say   that  is  what   that  talagraiH 
means,   beoaiise   it  cartainly  is  a  current,   outstanding  agroomant, 
b©caus5  that   thing  T/ao  a'ide  and  r^^ported  to    the   Oocnijission  at 
the  hviarirLg  rihen  3'Oti  scjt    th3  Bec^amber  pricss,   lonrr  before   this 
t el  .gram  was  racoivad,    and  it  -sas  signed  and  executed,    and  I 
suppos^id  accepted  by   th'3  Coacdssion   at   that    tiiae.      Therefore, 
we  wore  alive  on   the  price  fixing  for  tiiroa  aon1J-is.      And  that 
that  v^as   in  tho  minds  of   the  Coitmiiseion   is   indicated  by   th® 
fact   that  you  insisted  on  letting   tiitj  'Tovexabor  prices  rsfaain 
in  statu  luo  for  I^eoember  b^cauae   of    Uiia  inability  of  t^e 


dealers   to  hava  tha  fi^urss  accordin^:;   to  your  classification. 
So  that  all  the  svidenca  pointe   to    ths;  fact    that    thia  is  an 
outstandina:  asraeiatjnt  which  cannot  in  dec*ancy  be   abridged* 

Ohairman  ALL3K.        I    thinlc    that   is  luite  clear.     Do  you 
feal  the  same,  j&r.  Sears? 

Mr.   SSA1?S.      Y9S,    I    thinfe   it    is    luita   cli-ar. 

Chairman  AIXEW.     Mr.   Fatten? 

Mr.    PATTJS«      That   is   our  position  OTtirsly. 

Ohairraan  ALLL^*      Mr.  Morris  has   iilready  annoimOttd   the  ad- 
joumiaont  until  Dscember  30. 


{Ad^ourntju  at  12.10  p. as.    to  S  g.m*,   Monday  Dactisber  30,1918.) 


X. .     -'^  •:•  V 


1 


t,  -' .  ■ 


^j-' 


93 


FEDZ1>.AL  MILK   aOMLiir>SIC!N  i'OS  3SW  3NGLAND. 


Boston,   ]>sc2!nb9r  30,   1918. 


HSA3RIIJ0  BSjj'OTIS  THE  i'SDKRAL  MILK  OOMMISSIOH  i'OB  HEW 
SI?GLA>fD  in  Booia  427,   State  .pus©,   at  2  o'clock 
?tM,,   on   tiia  lusstion  of  a  possible  readjust- 
ment of  milk  prices  for  'law  Sngland. 


OhairjEan  ALLEN  presiding;      Sscrstary,  Dr.  Artiixir  1.  Gilbert 
A  quorum  ^^^^  press^nt. 


Ohairman  ALLIIN ,   in  calling  to  order,    said:     Ws  will  first 
hear  from  the  produo-^rs.     k'r.  Pattsa. 


3TATSM}5!i!T  3Y  MR,  •RIGllAHD  H>    PATT.SE. 

:Jr,   PATT2S.      Mr.    OhaiiTsian,    I   aas  sorry   to   say   th.it   our  *ir* 
Davis,   on  whom  we  raly  for  all  our  figuring  costs,   etc.,   has 
been  Btriok<3n  with  the   influanga  lind  is  not  abia    to   by  h^ra    to 
pras^nt  his   own   figures.     Ke    took  his  figiiras  home  isfith  hisa 
Saturday  night   :j.nd  ^as   taken  sick  that  ni^iit,    and  hag   simply 
ssnt  tham  in  hsre,      I  ain,th3r3fors,obligad   to  pr^isent  thaa  in  a 
vary  fra^aaontary  ¥;a.7.      I   aia  not  abls    to   cosiais^nt  on   thc-m  as  ilr. 
Davis,   who   compiisd   thea,    could. 

As   nearly   ;is  I    con   ctits   it,    the  figures   that  have   b3.-5n 
filed  !«<ith  you    jxq  his   ri>tabulation  of    the   costs   as  worked 
up  from  the   latast   data,    ??hich  w^s   principally    that  r'-c-^iv- 
3d  prior   to  your  last  hearing,    supplement ad,    I   understand, by 


•ncn.   ti'^ 


soine    f§w  that  may   have   some   In    slnsie..    At   that    hearing   you 
asked     for   oertaln  particular   Inforiratlon, .  and  Mr.  .D.Avld  has 
apparently    oompllsd' that    Inforiratlon  on  separate   sheets,    of    / 
'   which  but   one   copy   was    found  in   his  icemoranduir ,-3uch  things^  ^s 
'   the   prise  of   labor  by   states,. the  number   of   oows    Involved, . and' 
so   on,,  as   soice  of  you  who    were   present   v/ill    renjember..    I   would 
like   to    file   that   fbr   the   Inforiration  of  the  GcJinElsslon,.  al- 
though r  hav«  not   had   time  to    look   it   over,.    But    it    Is   a   suib- 
ijcary  made  up   from  +he  material  upon  which  he   compiled  his   other 
data.  . 

(Mr.    Pattee   filed   with   the  Ocimmlssion   sheets ,,  which   were 
marked' "Exhibit    1,   December   30,    1918,   E.   W,    K,/'-as    follows: 
(1)   The  average   cost   of   producing   a   quart   of  icllk   by  SAate    (Jlew; 
England!),   December  ,1917 ,  .June,    1918,    survey    for   June,    1918, 
August,    1918,   Ocotber    and   November,    1918; -(2)    Summary   sheet   of 
data    from  milk   producers   presented' afidavit,   November,    1918,.  for 
Maine,   New  Hampshire,   Vermont,   Massachusetts,   Cdrnectlcut-,. 
Rhode  Island  and     NewYork;      (3)    C<Jst   of  milk  production   In  Mas- 
sachusetts, for   November,    1918;       (4)'Cdst   or  milk   production   in 
Maine    for   Nov/ember,.  1918;      (5)   Cist   of  milk  produc^tion   in  New 
Kampshire,    for   November,    1918;      (6)'CcJ8t   of  milk   production   in 
Vermont   for  November,    1918; -(7)    CSet   of  milk   production   in: 
Cdnneotlcut,    for  November,    1918;       (3)  Five-line   summary   of   cost 
of  milk,    twelfth   zone  deduction,   and    cost    per  hundred   weight 
and   per   quart   f.o.b,,    Boston). 

Mr.    PATTEE.      According  to   the   tabulation  of  the   figures   as 
we  have   them,    as   we  had  them,    the  weighted   average    cost   of   pro- 
ducing  from   a    five   thousand   pound   cow  .one    quart    of  milk   f.o.D,. 
shipping   points,    would   be    .0857.. 

Ceirmlssioner   SAWYER.      Now     ^^ '    ^^^^®®»    ^'^^^    ^  iclnute.  . 


viol. 


lew   7.J0C 


->  ^      ,.  ,r,  ^• 


ftllicUi^T      ixTV      jaCiCiSV, 


■"    0+   6iil:I 


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ai' 


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(, 


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^rf 


L'':>i    , '-eixe 'voM    -to:  -S-* 


ni   aoi-fr. L'i.c-'*  i 


ncf.tr:. '.'I- CI"    5j.l]'-t;   td    *aoC''(-"/ 


^   '£) 


,  f  x'.Z;  tZ,  Co.      ,  .  C  >  O  .  2 

.o,n    \Ll-x.   '!■:■    i-' <'^'s    £:ia  v/ov   t'-:  '^c^  . 


95 
Take   yo-ip    first,    sheet,    and    you    will    find   -t-hat    +he    average    oost, 

the  viraighted  avora£:e  i'or  a  five   thousand  poimd  cow,   is  given  as 
.0857;   that   tha  avarage  production  p.-a-  sow  in  this   eurvey  is 
glvan  as  5,51S  pounds,   and  that    tiis  averdga  production  par  oow 
csneorsd  is  givun  as  4,055  pounds. 

Mr.    P/VrTSE.        Yes. 

Ooauaissionar  SkWfl^R,       ^ow,  you  brought  t.hat    .0674  for  a 
5,518  pound  cow  down  to    tha  cost  for  a  50GO  pound  cow.      Is 
that   it? 

Mr.   PATPSii.      I   siiouil   thinic  so.      I   should    thinjfc   that  would 
b9    the  process,  Mr.   Sawyer. 

Coismissionsr     OHPIS.       But  according  to   these  figurae  tha 
avercig-j  proauctxGu  par  cow  census   is  4,055  pounds. 

aoiriraissioner  BIHD.        Yes,    but   the   ba.sis   of    the   Cosmission's 
average  was  5000  pounae.  -' 

Gostmissioner  itD1?3US.       Yas,   1   know  that,   but  I  was  sisiply 
wondering  how  this  woula  figxir^a  out. 

Mr.   PATTS2.     You  unlarstand  that  pdrsonaiiy  X   have   not  had 
an  oppertimity   to  verify  these  figures,   but  I   assume   that  shat 
Mr.   Sawyer  says  is  true. 

Chairman  ALLSH.  What  were  the  last  month's  figurcis  set- 
tled by  th-3  3omiaission,  or  «hat  -*as  tha  last  figure,  weighted 
average,   for  a  5000  pound  cow? 

Mr.   PATTSB.      i   h-i.y«n't   the   ii^st  month's   exhibits  Yi^jra,    jjid 
I   cannot  tail  you   offh:ind.   But,    if  I  r'smsmbsr  ri^ht,    ,087   and 
something. 

Oomraissionsr  iaOllHIS.    ■  Well,   I    thinJc   ^e  understand   it. 

Mr.   PATTSE.      The   singlui   shoots   that  I   havy   just  h:4ndod  you, 
setting  forth   .0857  per   luart,   would  maan  3.98505   p-r  hundred, 
and,  taking   the  12th  zona  dsiductions,    .72515,    ana   adding   to   the 


t      i.      .<■ 


,,  t     .,-!»> 


i/     ^:--.'.:     Tr 


96 

cost  at  the  country  i-ailroad  station,  monlii  mSce  the   cost  dB- 
liveriid  at  Boston,   i>  .r  hundred  weight,   |4. 710205,   or  p«r  luart, 
dividing   that   by  4G-1/2,   10.13  cents,    dilivarad  in  Boston. 
That   ie,    if  you  v.are  to  a^/ard  us  10,13  cants,   daliv^red  in 
Boston,   we  woula  recaiv©  for   the  12th  or   typical  zone   .0857 
at    the  railroad  station  for  our  aiJX . 

Under  the  figuras  that  ar-:3  given,  I  see  no  way  but  for  us 
to  aac  that  the  Oommission  asvard  ua  10.13  C3nts  per  ^uart,  do- 
livared  at  Boston, 

In  discussing  these  fig\a-5S,   I  wish  we  could  l5.no v«  whether 
or  no    the  OoHBaiscion  is  to   fix  a  pries  for  three  xaonths,   and 
several  oth-jr  elements  which  will  enter  int^    tha  price   to  be 
received  for  miUt   during  the    three  jaonti-is.   If  so   awarded; 
whether  or  not  whatever  prise  will  oe  awarded  will  be  affected 
by  a  surplus   provision,    auch  as  has  obtained  in   the  pact,   and, 
if  so,   what  form  tint  siirplua  arrangement  will   tafr;a?     If  it  is 
conteiaplated  to  revive   the  surplus  charge  bacii,    we  would  liie 
to   be  heai'd  »ith  respect    to   sossi   changes  wr.ich  «e  woiild  as^    the 
Conanission   to  aoKe   in   the  matter  of   the   surplus  charges. 

Ohairman  ALL3F.     Before  answering;    the    question,   ilr.  Pattae, 
I  Twill  say    that  we   thitlc   you  should  now  put  in   ail  your   sug- 
gesMons  in  regard  to  the  surplus  plan. 

Mr.   PATTSS.      I  do  not  *iish  to  be   in  the  position  of  a^ing, 
moving  or  requesting,   or  in  any  way  sug-ssting   the  revival  of 
the  surplus   charge  ba^t    to   ttie  producers. 

Ohairman  AU.:i.H.      I    thira^   it   is  only  fair   to  say  here,    as 
Mr.  Pattee  has  a^ed   the  Consiission  a  lusstion,    that  we  are 
proceeding  with  this  hearing  srith  the  understanding  ctnd  ac- 
cording to  the  agreement  entered  into  on  Sovymber  13th,   I    thirfis. 
it  was,   to  fix  the  prices  for   thfs  next    three  aonths.      It  c^'as 


? 


Y^ttt)   iL'.i;,^v  >■ 


't    •'"i'".i,' 


»te' 


'  J^  V 


97 

without   saying  that  at   ths  tsnd  of   that  pariod,    if    the  Oommission 

continues  until  April  1st,    ths  Goinmission  will  go     out  of  ex- 

iatenca  on  April  1st,    ana   that  you  can  sount  upon  at   liS   lafi- 

nite    that   tiua  will  bs   th9  last  m^^eting  ox    ths  Oomssission.   It 

is    true    tiiat   today  we   are   proceeding  on    the   asovBBption  that 

ths  Administration  at  Washington  will  carry  out  the  agresaaantt 

which   the  aommission  all  feel  that   they   should  do,   out   we  will 

not,   of  course,    got    ths   official  approval  from  Washington  be- 

fora  we  establish  the  final  pricoc  for    toe  n>3Xt   three  months. 

But  there   io  another  thing   that  we  aill  ought  to  realize,   and 

that  is  that    this  will  be    the  last  period,   if  *e  do  fix     rices 

for  this  period,   for  which  tha  aozEmiscion  will  sit.      The,vafora, 

it  is  a  very  pertinent   thing    to   bring  up  now   the  i^ueetion  of 

surplus  plan,    because   if  you  start  sosisthing  for   three  months 

I  and  then  you  have  no  body  such  as  this  Oonusission,  n^i^her  we 

nor  anybody  else  ifcnows  wnat  ^^ili  happen  on  April  Int,   so  far 

I  as    the   surplus  plan  goes*      Therefore,    the    luestion  should  b6 
i 
Yery  carefully   considered  on  all  sides  as   to  r-hat  will  oa    the 

I 

I  bast    thins  for  tha  ^hole  industry   tods^. 

I  Mr.   PAT'CEii.     Und^r   the  oircuastancee,  Mr.   Chairman,   I 

thiyfe.  1  will  suggest  a  motion,   if   that  is    the  proper  tjrooedi»re» 
that   the  Ooinaission  find  its  price  for  the  ne^tt   three  months 
on   tha  basis  of  cost  plus  a  reasonable  profit,   v/ithout  a  sur- 
plus  charge  baOt  to   the  fanaei'S« 

Coram.  MOBPIS.       Oannot  w^  tall  what   the  S'sxrplus  will  be? 

Mr.  PATTSE.  I  simply  made  that  c.e  a  suggestion  to  the 
Goaaraission.  If  that  be  overruled,  I  should  liV.s  to  suggest 
certain  changes  in   the  surplus  plan. 

Mr.   CUSIOYh.     Mr.   Chalnaan,    I  ^ant  to   a^    through  you  if 
Mr.  Pat  tee  realiaes  that  when   the  agreement  was  signed  on 


».    -" '..j  -V  w 


98 

November  22ncl,    ths   orior  of  this  dommisaion  was   that   thyre 
should   bQ  a  surplus  plan?     That  surplus  plan  was   then  in  fores. 
We  supposed  it  was   to  continue   in  force.     W©    actsd  on   that 
«S8\aaption.      It   is  now  in  force,    and  even  on   tha   i us sti on  of  tho 
jaonth  of  Novimber  your  notice    to   ths  dealers  spi«cifisaliy  says 
that   1iie  surpiiis  plan  is  not  even  modified. 

Chairman  AIXEH.     It   is  now  in  fores  and  sill  continue  in 
force. 

Mr.   aUSIOl^v.     While  you  mMe  prices. 

Chairaan  ALLSB.     Unless   ths  Cojmiission  changes  it.      How, 
Mr.  Pattee  has  soias  suggestions   to  rnMe* 

Mr.   CUSIO'K*     He  sugsasts  abolishing   the   surplus. 

Ohainnan  ALLSH.      'Bxa  Coa;ni8sion  has  not  voted   on  it.     W© 
will  hsar  the  suggestions. 

Mr.   CUSIOI^     Is   that  luas^.ion  open  at   this  la, to  day,   laidar 
the  ciroiaast.ances?  ;.     .  >      ■  .         ■.■ 

CSiainnan  ALLSI?.     I   should  say  It  was.     W«  have  not   answered 
Mr.   Pattys. 

Ir.  PATIOS.     Mr.   Chairman,   if  I   do  not  mis-state,    the 
record  will  show  that  w«  suggaoted   to   tlie  "OBsaission  nothing 
«3xsept  that    tha  status  of    t-he  surpliis  plan  rsmain  for   tlis  next 
tliree  months  what  it   was  for  ^'ovesbtsr.        If  the  Ooasiaission 
ovsrruless   that,   I  would  fean  iifce   to  mi^e  sense  eng-r^SBtions   in 
rs^rd   to  an  amendzsent   fjo  the  surplus  plan. 

ahainaan  ALXSM.     Tfe©  Coajgussioa  feels   that  the  surplus  plan 
should  continue   in  operation  as  long  as   ths  Oosjmisaion  sets  a 
fixed  price.      They  wiH  be  gl-td  to  sit  and  listen   to  proposed 
modifications,   but  otherwise  th<*  surplus  plan  will  stay  xn  ei- 
jfect  as  long  as    tsi&  Goiomission  sits.      We   hav>:i  voted  from  time 
to    time  various  osodiflcations,   which,    of  course,   wo  shall  con- 


U^'i    /v.ti,;. 


jr.hi  I'j    ■>-!'.  c  ;'i 


99 

I  tinue    to  do  if  -we   thirty   advisable.      So,  you  m^iy  present  your 
suggestions,  I^r.   Pattee, 

iir.   PATTjSE.      The  first   is  rnado,    as  a  matter  of  r- cord,  that 
'  no   siiTpius   bd  charg'^d   out^    to   the  farmers . 
I  I  would  now  liXa    to  hand  to   thd  Gotarission  this  slip. 

(liandins    to    tv  j   Oomrnission    this  follovsing    5 
I 

•That  the  S  P  ba  so  amended  that   aftsr   the   de- 
duction of    the  sX  trade  surplus,    thare  shall  be  de- 
ducted the  -Jtmount  of  ailfe  purchased  from  daitrias 
t*^on  on  sines  Hovembar  i^Oth,  1918,   and  tho  net 
balance  so  detersiinsid  shall  be    th^  surplus  deait  %fith 
as  provided  in    tha  surplus  plan. 

•Provided  that,   if  such  n^t  balance  shall  not 
madt   the  naoda  of   tha  dealer,   for  roai^vst  miJJs.,   and 
to  maks.«^  up  the  5,i  trade   sturplus,    Ui^  araount   so  n^edad 
shall  b3  t4j^;an  at  the  whola  mili&  pries  from  dairi«5s 
t^«n  on  since  ?rova2Jbc;r  ZOth  and   the  bol^aice  shall 
b©  the  surplus  charsea'ole    to  such  dairies  and  no 
others,    as  surplus  undv^r  the  surplus  plan.') 
I  would  liKa   to  au^^»st   to   the  Coraiaisaicn  that   tha  iet- 
tdrs  •S  P*    stand,  for  'Surplus   Plan".     I   s&^j    that   the  girl  wrot« 
it  "S  P".      i   initialled  it    that  way  in  writing  it,   on   the 
assuinptlon    that  she  would  writs?  •Surplus  Plan",      (rfeading  the 
suggestion  as  set  forth  abova  in  parenthesis.) 

The  Oommission  in  its  sisdom  way  s«a  fit   to   raviss    tha 
language. 

The  purpose  of   that  rsJiuest,    stated  as  well  as  I  Knoa  hoa 
to  state   it,   is    that      the  production  of  dairies  so    taSttsn  on 
shox:ld  not  bd  added    to    tha  surplus  charged  bact  of  dairies 
previously  on;    that   the   diialers  aight  not  bo  allowed  to  go  out 


'  ;».j .. 


:;j:^.^    :^iv;    i^O"- 


\K'    cavt*   ftCi&e.  :.':;'--i 


o-  -    ",-tt  ^. 


<A.'^ 


IJF 


^;.-vr> 


.*«.:. X-    r^^^Xq- .•:.;;?■ 


fiOi^am.tj"S£ 


'    .     **      ":' 


■ .  ■     ^'  ■<  -^ 


100 

and  add  n«w  (dairies   to  their  purchaaae  and   charge  bacK    tlie 
Burplus  80   crviatad  to  the  dairies  from  whom  thay  were  receiving 
raiJis.   prior   to   thair  purchass  fron  now  dairies. 

Corasa.  BIRD.     Is    there  any  stipiilation  in   there,  Mr.Pa.tt3Q, 
that  tJie  dairies   that  are  supplying  raiUc    to   tha  daaiyrs  should 
not  Changs  ovar? 

Mr.  PATTSS.     If  yoii  can  ^rita  such  a  stipulation  and  ®s 
can  assist  you  in  enforcing  it,  we  will  ba  glad   to  do  so. 

Coma.  3I1?D.     'ft'liat  x^ro taction  is   that   to  the  dsaiar  if  a 
lot  of  dairiss   change  ovsr   to  somebody  slse  ana  r^duci   the 
amoxait  of  csllis.,    and  he  cannot   t^fiij   ovar  any  dairies    to   t?i:.a 
thdir  place?     What  happens   than? 

Mr.   PATTES.     I    thirfic   that  is   coverod  in  ths  second  para- 
graph.        '^    ..       - 

3h&irman  ALL2S,      JTow,    shall  w5  disease    th^J  raattssr  at   this 
point,   or  hurry  along  now  and  t^e   up  other  points?     Is   there 
any  discussion  desir<3d  upon  this? 

Mr.   0USI01?-*       Tes,  we  %ant   to   ba  hsard  on  any  modification 
of   the  surplus  clause.     This   is   ths  first  wa  have  hoard  in  re- 
gard  to   such  a  thin,?j  as  t/iis.     We   ara   trying  to  do   two   things 
at   once.     If  you  w.aait  us   to    iiscuss  it  no*,   v^ry  well,   but  I 
thirfe  v?s  should  havs  a  littls  time   to   thirfr:   it  ovar  and  find 
what   in  time  he   m3an8  by   this.      Ka   says   you  aay   chanrrs    the  ian- 
guaga.     AH  ;?e  have   to  go  t>y  is    tiie  languaga  that  appears  hare. 

Oh.ainsan  ALLSN.     I   thirfe  «e  laight  as  woll  50  along,    that 
it  will  sava   time  for  both  sides. 

Mr.  OUSIOf,.      ^9  would  liy;^  to   find  out  what   he  naeans   by 
it. 

Chairman  ALLiiN.       A^  him. 

Mr,   CUSICl'v.      Just   Ahat   do  you  aean  by    that,  ^Ir.   Pattee? 


4 


f  Tft      •■ 


i 


rSiy   ,,  >  !.  ■^■'sj.  .■».■...,■.,     I-.'       V-  1  •;. 


:-f^    iio    fc-"^  ■:■:■ 


3Vi.;     n■^^•    ,^f;-s|:i 


.'/h    i' 


^     « 


'"'    .O'tj,..^ 


101 


Mr,   PATTES.      I   don't   thxr&a  I   can  improve   on    the  language 
as  laid  down  in   th-^  statement,  Mr.   Chairman. 

Coram.   MlTRDOCIiC.      Perhaps  he   can   givs   us    the   reasons,    then, 
why  he   asScs   for  the   change.     What    is   the   basis  of  it? 

Mr.   PATTEE.        If    the   Commission  woiiLd  li'is.e   to    consxilt  its 
own  record,    it  will  find  that  during   the   summer  a  large   number 
of   dairies  were   taiicen  on  by   the   dealers   in  milt,   more   than  were 
dropped.     Dr.   Gilbert  has  furnished  me  with  some  figures   that 
he    compiled,    v/hich  are,    I   presume,    in   the   possession   of    the 
Commission.      They  are  figures  relative   to    the  nvimber  of  new 
dairies  taicen  on  and  old  dairies   discarded  or  lost,    or  disap- 
pearing,   in   the   case  of    the  variou^eaiers.        These  figures 
show    that   there   was   a   considerable  addition   to    the   number  of 
dairies   laS&en  on,    that  in  some    instances    the   number  was   twice 
as   great   or  more   than    the  number  of  dairiss  lost,    without  a 
corresponding   increase    in   the  sale   of  miJ3s:.      Now,    the   complaint 
is   general    throughout   the  producing  section   that    the   continu- 
ance  of   that  practice  not  only    throws   doubt  on   the  necessity 
for   the   surplus   charge   baclc   that   is  made,   but  opens    the   door 
to   a  serious    situation  affecting  the   interests  of    the  producers 
in  many   sections.      If    the   present   system  is   continued,   under 
which  without  cheCit   or  restraint  in  some  way   the   dealers  may 
continue    to   taKe   on  new  dairies  at    their  will  and  pleasure   and 
charge    bacSs:    to   the  producers  who  have   been  previously  supplying 
miOas.    the  loss   on    the  excess  miUc    that  arises    in   that  v/ay. 


there  Is  nothing  to  prevent  dealers  from  Invading  new  territory 
from  taking  on  daipiee  that  would  seriously  handicap  the  opera- 
tions of  country  creameries,  and  their  doing  eo  would  be  at  no 
loss  or  sacrifice  to  themselves,  but  the  loss  that  would  arise 
in  that  way  would  fall  upon  the  dairies  which  they  had  been  pre- 
viously handling,  although  it  would  be  the  result  of  no  fault  of 
and  would  be  absolutely  not  under  the  control  of  such  dairies,. 
We  believe  it  is  fair,  just  and  reasonable,  that  if  a  dairy  an- 
ticipates a  certain  need  for  milk  in  the  future  and  goes  out 
and  purchases  the  milk  in  anticipation  of  that  nee^   the  loss 
that  arises  by  reason  of  any  faulty  Judgement,  because  the  dairy 
finds  that  it  did  not  need  it,  fall  on  the  man  who  exercised 
that  Judgement,  ^o  went  cut  and  bought  milk  that  he  did  not 
use..  The  loss  in  making  such  purchases  should  not  be  charged 
up  to  the  other  dairies,  that  have  nothing  to  do  with  it..  1 
think  that  covers  the  whole  situation.. 

Chairman  ALLBN.  Are  there  any  questions?' 

Mr.  ZIMMERMANN  (  of  Wavlandr  vsr,      nv>    a 

"^y-^aoaK.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  lik« 
to  .e.  ..  .,..  ,.,,,  „„^  ^^^_  ^^^  ^^^^^^^  ^ 

don*t  think  ther.©  wm   k^ 

.1.9.  e  will   be   a   surplus.      T   b^o  +v,o+    *v      ^ 

i'  ^'t.     X   see  that  the  farasrs 

«a.«l„  there  between  two  .onths..    .e  this  «e„tXe.an  se..        ,. 

don-t  .no,  *,t  le  ,.,^  tohappen  when  the  three  „onthe  Je  up        , 

-v,n«   ,uet  .ot  th..„«h  Kc,«„.e.  ^,  .....,.,.    ,„,  ,_„       ^^^ 

ruapy  and  Maroh  coining..   j>nother  thing     we  are  »„„,        * 

"■"«'   *=  are  ooBlng  to  the 
lipst   of  Anpn  AH^ 

Jiprii   ,    and   se  ape  not  koIbi  tn  i,.„. 

going  to  have  any  war.,    jf   ,;,. 

tMng  waa  going  to   he  In   the  hands   of  the   Pe.lonaX  hoaPd   Plght 


"i  J  i'iO 


■:i^^. 


c-f;    -j-S    'Stt 


,  n  ■ 


'ICl    IK, 


■,V'^    P^i 


r    ,n^ia%i.-ir 


b1       TfiC- '..tfi-'^^i'fs!       'i 


-  -c-i.-  -.iH!-  fV^V-      3i.  t.":^      - 


■:  ".  ?     3ii>t  K    ^ 


■.ri.-;..    ,  -,  i'.iii;-;  ^"i*i    ^ -'^ 


'iJ2iJ{. 


^.i;to:i. 


•long,    It   s^uld  save  this   ergulng,   disputing,      and  the   faricers 
«nd  others    jrculd   sbids  by    it..    If   '?©  Iocs   thnt   th©   first  of 
April,    are  «p©  going  to  have  ecntinual   arg.jing..   It   eeaiES  to  ae 
It  would  bs  a  good  thing  to  do  i»v/ay    .vltfc  ttrat   sort   of  argument, 
as  aenoh    38   poeaible,   giving  tfcis   easce  board  tfcs  pc#©r   tfeat   it 
bae  had  me   a  regional  boar''   In  sstiting  tbe  ppios  of  ajllk,    that 
that  would  be  satlefaotory  to   the  prodisosps  and  oontpaotora 
both..    Othsrslae,   «re    sfill  bsivs  this   continual   arguiEent,    wfciofc 
the  public  dees  not  want  to  sse,    and  one  thing  and  aasotfcer,.   I 
think  ws  certainly  don't  want  that,.   T  think  it  e&vs  ©  good  ds«l 
of  trouble  If  we  oculd  h^ve  eoaie  kind  of  agreansnt,    and  If  ars 
don*t  things  will  get   into  bad  shape..  There's  another  thing  I 
would  like  to  say,   Intpoduclng  another  queeticn.. 

Chairman  ALLEN.      Y  u   srs   s   ppoduosr? 

He,   iSlMilERHASK.     Yes  sir.     I   ssifr  the  other  night   that  they 
w&fB  going  to  lower  the  prlo$  of  flour  and  were  going  to  «hsrge 
a  dollar  mcr&  for  the  grain..   Kow,   the  prise  cf  grain  affeots 
tbs  prlc©  cf  aellk.      We  in  Maseaofcueetts  are  tec  inuoh  at   ths  a?er- 
oy  ot  soffisbody  in  the  Wsst.     A  grain  corporation  gsts  tcgether 
and  sets  the  price  of  grain.     GSntlsjrsn,  I   will  tell  you  how 
tfcsy  do   It..   It   is  a  funny  thing  how  they  Bj&k©  s  eonsuffier   in 
Ss-y  aagland,   and  sv  3ry   produosr,   j^ay   the  bill..   They  gst  into  a 
pcoa  out  Wsst-I  don't  knc*  whether   it  would  be  the  afeioago 
Bc*rd  of  Trads  or  eom®  grsln   3orporatiGn,-®nd  get  together   end 
asafcs  the  figures..   It  es^ss  that    befors,       the  gold  standard 
usad  to  be  -what   th«y  iceaaursd  values    .ylth..    It  esea-s  no^a?  that 
the  standard  Is   the  hog..   The  prlo«   :f  grsln  Is  settled  by  tha 
price  cf   th*  fe'?g..   If  ths  hog   is   $13.15,   that  governs  the  grain. 


-:    >   't, 


r:':s--'J'-    :;l.-r.  ■''■■•it      ■^eiG'xsc!:  .i'Ss^.l    :jc--?s; 


.„  /■  ,.  .;,  V, 


■"•  r,5«'"'2  '■; 


W|V  ■;■;:  V        5:; 


We 


VAgbt   tc  4o   scajethlng  to  bre«k  tfce  power  of  the  gr%ln  ocrpcra- 

tlon,   the  biggeet  trust   «a  havs  In  the  scintry..  Ev^py  perecn,  I 

don't   oare   »ho  paye  for  ffiillc,   pa^e  more  than  he  ought  to,   be- 

eau6«  these  asen  hsve  the  pcwer  tc    settle  thle   thing.     Thsy  gst 

into   1  rcois  end  dictate  th©  prloe  of  grain.     Thee©  are  the  fscte. 

7   don't  knee  of  a  win   today   producing  milk  irbo   ie  eak'ng  ascnsy, 

beeiuse  ths  acn  out  thsr^  have  the  power  to  asks  or  state  th« 

price   fr-^  the  grsin,    although  %'e  have  the  biggest  crop    *?»  ever 

had,    snl  still   everybody   Is    In   the  power   of   those  perscne..   Tb® 

out   thare 
Preeident   of  the  HnitM  States   and  all   these  people  .don't  kncsf 

that    ,.    Bryan  w»8  f^r  s-way- 

Ofeairs-on  ALL^..   I   S2i   sorry,    but    It    cesae  to  us  you  are 
g«ttlng  r.*-thsr  far  asay  fro®  the  subject.. 

Mr.   SSTMMSBMASK.     It  has  a  direct  operation  on  tha  ^rioe 
of  allk. 

Ohairrsan  AlXSN.     T   wlah  the  Obaafciseion  alght  do    aoisethlng 
about   It,   but   it   18  outside  of  our   province.. 

Mr.   ZTMUmmBM..    Well,    *s  ought  to  do   eoicething   about  It 
In  He*  ingland,  here..    T  {cno-*  a  tcaxx   ^ho   lost   fifteen  hundred 
dollars  la^t  ysar  awaking  aillk ,    and  prob^tbly  more,  on   ao-iount  of 
the  price  of  grain.. 

«r.   OrjsTOE..    Mr.   ahalriEan,    aa  T  tmderatand  Mr.,Pattee'8 
suggestion,  hs  ^ants  you  tc  i^cdlfy  the  surplus  olsusa  in  so^ce 
aannsr  ao   as  to  provide  in  ths  surplus  plan  for  new  dairies 
that   are  tak^n  on  froa:   tias  to  tlsee  by  the  different  contrac- 
tors,   and  I  undaretand  th?.t  he  has  had  compiled  for  hla  a  state- 


feCi^sq 


n^' 


1-  <  -J  :  I? 


■fy\,^.       ?>-■*■' 


>.,:r;'3. 


»«nt  Indicating  +>©  ni;n;ber  of  dairies  tfeat  have  been  atoppetl 
and  the  nuabsr  of     dalrlee  that  fcav®  been  put  on  by  the  dif- 
f erect  contractors   froa  May  1,   15^18,.   This   etateffient  has   ;5ust 
now  been  pressRtad  to  m»,.    But  there  ie  on©  very  significant 
thing   about  it,    an4  that  is  this,   that,    jritfc  the  oon<iitlon  of 
ths   fluid  Eilk  supply  in  this  alty   in  the  latter   part   of  October 
and  Sovesber,   "nder  alaost  faffiine  conditions,    it.   is  vep^  evident 
that  the  jsilk  contractors  did  not  take  on  enough  dairies  op 
dalplas  making   anough  Ellk..    The  unscvstidnees  cf  trls  propcsl- 
tlon  lies  right  hero..    Take  the  0..?i?hitlng  Sons   for   Instsr^cs,. 
It   is  alleged  that  they  have  taken  on   since  May  1,   1918, ^   ^nd 
this  ia  obtained  froze   records  of  the  secretary,   iEo.de,  T   under- 
stand,  aa  requlPsd  by  the  OOfflariesicnjr-thpee  hundred  and  ninety- 
three  dairies,    stnd  have  stepped  tfe'o  hundred  Bzifk  seventy  dsirise,. 
There  is  absolutely  no    svidenee  in   existence  C!Ow-T  moon     that 
there  is  no  evidence  before  this  beard,   and  Mr.   Pattee  person- 
ally has  no   c.vid9nce,-ae  to   whether  the  velu3re  of  irilk   repre- 
sented by  those  ti«>  hundred  and   seventy  dairies  that    ^fere 
stopped  iBore  than  eq^ialised  ths  volusa  of  iBilk  obtained  froru 
the  three  hundred   and  ninety-three  thst   it  claissed  have  been 
put  on,.   Ta  tfes  naturaO.  coarse  cf  events  there  are  dalrle?^  stop- 
ping  every  sonth,    for  reasons  tfc'it  art   sntlrely   ooll^tsral   psr- 
[haps   to  the  allk  business..    There   is   a  change  la  dairies  going 
on  all  the  tlse,.    But,  ae  T  conceive  the  basic  ppinoiple  of  your 
surplus  clause,   it  Is  based  on  the  entire  ind^istry,.    All  T   can 
aay  about  D,, Whiting  and  Sone  in  this  respect  is  thle,   that  he 
did  not  pijt  on  anough  dairies  to  carry  and  supply  our  trade  for 
fluid  fflllk  xHider  the  conditions   tfcat   existed  the  latter   pmrt  cf 
October   and  the   first  of  SoviiEber,.    The  entire  basis  of  the  eur- 


i  i:.}!-;'; 


0    -i :::  :r   v  if . 


tt  rsf:*-    .^i::t '    ;;  i 


.>>a.' 


J.»J-C 


plus  olauee  le  the  oarrj'lng  of  teilk   sufficient  to    supply  tbs 
coraal  trade   -t  tbe  time  of  ths  lowest  production..    This  efcowe 
rlgfct   m  Iteelf  tbe  reason  why  you   Bhould  have  ^  ^^^^^^^   clause. 
Here   is   this   grv^at  big  uroduotion,    ftitii    thic  surplus   you  h^^ve 
rsferenc^   to 


fi 


107 

Which  your  secretary  has  an  account  of,   a  surplus  of  sometimya 
perhaps  40  p^r  cent.       In  Noviraber,  with  tho   additional  dairies 
ha   ia  no-Af  complaining:  about,   w3   could  not  get  our  normal  amount 
of  lailK    to   supply  part  of   the  Octobjr  and  Novemoar  business, 
I   don*t  SS0  how  — - 


Mr.   PA.TTES.     Mr.   Chairman,    may   I   asV. 


S.      JiJ   * 


Gusic^    if  hist  will 


Is-indly  read   the  list   clauoe  xn  hhi3  requyst? 

Mr.   GUSIOyi.     I  don*t  Ynoit  '*hat  it  m^ianc,    and  I   h^ve  raad 

it.  '^    '•■     ■■  ■    •"  ■   "     ■  -•  '   ^^ 

Mr.   PATTSS.      I   dori*t    thiiUi   you  have.      You  ara   tal&ing 
about  the  dj.iri«s  previous  to  the   last   of  Octooar  and   th«t  month 
of  November,  .    .  .f  ..  .■ , 

Mr,   OUSIO'.      I   am  not  talKing  about  .cJaxriea. 

Mr.   PATTiSE.      This  doi-o  not  raiuast   ths   Ooiiimission   to   ti&f.3 
thosa  dairies  into   consideration  at  all,    but  only  those   d^iiries 
added  since  Mov-jmb'^'r  30,      I  aoubt   if  llr,   Oueick   undarstood  that. 

Mr.  CUSIO'B;.     Wall,    you  ar^  d-saling  with  a  prinoipld,   and 
the  principle   is   the   saaae  whether   tha  dairies  wsra   ta6t<»n  on 
bi^'fore  or  after  Nov^mbsr  oOth.      But  I   have  no   doubt   ttis   dairies 
tc£tiiin  on  since  lyrovoimbr^r  30th  —  I   don't  "kcnow  about  this,   but  I 
thirfe    it   is  probably   true,-  w^ra  aiaply    t^en  on  in   tha  na.tural 
oourss  of  businsso,    and,    that  b-aing  ao,   vhat  are  you  going   to  do 
«sith  those  dairies?     ■•  ■  ■  •  •• 

Mr.   2IMMSRMAK.      They  otb  all   ^ibsorbad  in  th^   clxarse   bactij:. 

Mr.   OUSIOK'.      Shat  would  you  do,   .^r.   Pat  tee,  ^ith   those 
dairies? 

Mr.   PATT23.      It  is  provided  in   the   second  paragraph  that 
if  a  surplus  arises  oy  rsaaon  of  adding  Hw-w-  dairies,    the  ciirpius 
th-it  BO  arls-ss   shall  X)'j  ohyrgod  back   to   those  dairies. 

Mr*  CUSICK.      That   is   about  as  practical   a   thing ■ 


« 


,j^;i   ^iyi^vV}  t-s-W  'li 


,ai,.uJ'  J;:^cd;.   vofti^-  c^'Ar':;    i 

■a;   .-■    V;  J.-  ...£.■..!.■■         •I.  '- 


■le- 


■i."  .^'v    iv;i..-    iu  ■»?::<! f  )*/•:;>■    .li;.fc   i^ 


■•rf      V-   ■H>   »-    '*  *•-  ♦ 


108 

Oomm.  MOIR'RIS.      Praotioally  wiping  out    tha  OorafBission's 
prices  ac   to   those  dairias. 

Hr,   OUSIOK.      Abaolubsly. 

Mr»  PATTSS.  To  the  extent  t>i3  dairi.i'3  pi-oviae  a  surplus, 
and.  your  surplus  plan  itself  ssrip-js  out  tha  Ooiamisaion' s  prices 
to  all  the  dairies  in  that  case. 

Mr.   CUSIOK.     Ho. 

Mr.   PATTSS.     ¥sli,   shall  th<2  pricas  you  award  to   the  pres- 
ent producers     whose  supr>ly  is  ne^dQd  be  wiped  out  or  extin- 
guished in  whole  or  in  part  by   tho  daaler  going  out  -md  b-uying 
dairies  that  ha  did  not  naed? 

OOfom,  M01?"RIS.      I  want   to  sie  if  I   gat  your  point,  Mr. 
Pattiis,   if  I   understand  it.      If  dairi-js  hiv^^  bain  taken  on  sines 
Hov3aib5r  30,    and   that  hxs  creatM  a  sorplus    to   tha   ^smount  of 
thosa  dairies*    then   tnos©  producers  ??ill  only  giit   out  of  their 
milk  just  what   it  is   good  for,  wliat  it  aaoxmts   to  for  manufac- 
turing,   as   surplus? 

Mr.  PATT3S.     Yes,    sir;    and,    to   tha  extent  tjiat  thoir  silk 
is  nS'Sdsd,    if   th-.^ir  milk   is  needed  for  the  tnarket,    and    to  raoke 
up  this  sX  dealers'   carrying  ac«>unt,    to  that  extent  thay  get 
paid   the  whole  siilk  pries. 

Ooisja.   MOi?'RIS.     As    a  result, you  would     forc^j   them  basi:  into 
the  creaa^ri^js,    or  's/horsvsr  they  sold   th«ir  silk  bafore?     That 
would  b^   tha  natural  oons'i:iuence,   wouldn't   it? 

Mr.   PATTjvS.      Tha  conse-iuencc  would  ba  that   if   a  dealer 
^ould   take  on  new  dairi^js  he  would  take   thsm  only   subject   to 
a  surplus   charge  b^ck  if   they  created  a  surplus.      It   is  not 
asksd,  you  will  undtsrstand,   in  this  plan,    that  any  restraint 
b^  placsd  at   all  on  the  purchase  of  n^«  dairies,   or  on  addition- 
al bus in as a. 


.-  ■■  -■       1 . 


•Vw.  »^i«,- 


•^^'.l.d-K  .■■■ 


JLU^ 


Comm*  M0'r?113.      If   thgy  want    to  sand  tfielr  laiiic   into  Boston 
and  have  it  manuf acturad,   amd  tak^   the  manixf aoturer'8  prices, 
they  iire  at  liberty   to  do  it? 

Mr,   PATTSIiS.      And   taks    the   chance,   perhaps,    of  taking   the 
wliole    bi.-i.» 

Ur»  ¥•  ?•   OQGS,,  Mr.  Chairman,  my  nrnt^  is  M.   ?.   Cook, 

or  Mt»  Holly,   Yerjaont.      In  my  section  of  Y&rs^nt  —   I  aia  oa-i  of 
the  back- to- ths -landers  —  th^re  xs   a  very  considgi'abie  laac- 
ation  of  the   cows   in  i'ebruaury   and   in  March.     Now,   take   the  case 
of  a  daaler  who  drew  a  supply  of  inilk  from  our  section,    3jid  who 
lias  not,  had  occasion   to   taka  on  a  dairy   since  T'Tovembor  30,   but 
the  dairies   increase  over   their  normal  production,    and  with  the 
saiae  hards   they  ware  getting  40X  sore  niilk  than  now?     What 
wo'old  bs   t}iB  pocition  of  a  dealer  wh^^rd  h3  has  taken  on  no  naw 
dairies  since  !>rove®bsrr  30th?     Would  hs   be   obliged    to   take  all 
of   that  40X  increase?  ... 

ar.   PATTSS.     Is  the  ^sntlesaan  addressing  hie  luiistion 
to  me? 

2Ir.  COOE.      I  ma  asking  for  information. 

Chairman  ALL3H.     You  raight  answer  t'm  question,    if  you 
wish,  Mr«  Pattss. 

Mr*   PATTiSE.     The   chiin^s  aug^sstad  hsre  do-as  not  involve 
any  chants  at  all  in  r^igviird  to    that  x-an  charging  biiOk  his  sur- 
plus  to  his  old  ^oducars*     If   tb^i  surplxis  arises   through  tiie 
production  of  fona^r  producers.   At  will  be  charged  back  as  im- 
fora.     If  it  arises   through  the  addition  of  new  dairies,    then 
those  nsft-  dairies,    to   ths   ^^xtant  that   they  mads   it,  would  bear. 
In  othor  words,  from   the  whola   surplus,   b=if or 3  it  ^as  cn^orgad 
haok   to    ths  producer,   lisould  be  taken  the  production  of  nov/ 
dairies. 


O'jrf^     ^ -i  •!  »,*'-::.     ii-f^ii'XVZ^    ^ 


>>.'  ^  t  t.\  ■ 


Chainsan  ALL3W.     Is   that  clear,  ^r.  Ousick? 

jJr.  CUSIOK.        7^ry  claar,    but  I   would  like   to  aak  Mr, 
Pat  tee   tiiis:  Who  ara  the  fonnsr  produceirs?     Tiioew  producers  ara 
chansing  svsry  aontii, 

Mr.  PATTJiS.      As  of  STovsabar  30  th, 

Mr.   QUSlcai.        But  thay  will  change  during  D^caabar,   and 
througii  Januiry,   i'sbruatry  and  March.     That  is    tha  norsu^   condi- 
tion of    tilings,    the  normal   shaagcs  indicatsd  h^rs  by    the  figures 
generally.      The   thing  is  not  so  fixtsd   that  -a^  have   ths   saa© 
dairiss  supplying  us   today   tha^   v7S  will  probably  hav&  a  month 
from  toaay.      Borae   adll  drop  out   and.  soae  will  soma   in.     2vOw, 
your  siarplus  ehargts   pfovid'^s  for  just    thoae  conditions «      It 
rsquirss  us,   I    thlnls.,   to  notiiTy  the  Board  wh-jnevar  *e   take  on 
new  dairies  or  drop  otiiisre.     Z'h.^  ajcaot  langua-e  is  not  a^^l'^© 
definite  in  ssy  mind,   but  I  knov^  t.hsrs  is  a  clause   in  the   svir- 
plue  provision  that  re^^ates  juat  such   things  as  wa  ars   talk- 
ing about  non, 

Ghairman  ALL7JS*      This  sounds  to  m*3  lUto  a  xmion  :amons  ^^^ 
miilc  producers. 

Mr*  CU^i^:.     Oh,    it  is  worca  than  that.     Ho,v,    this  s'orplus 
matter  is  provid^sd  for  in   ^he  arran^ea^nt  already  existing. 
Ta^e   tha  Whltins  business,  for  instance.      They  havs  probably 
sent  word   to  your  Administrator  during   the  pariod  rsfarrad  to 
h«rs,  from  July  lat.     The   thing  is  fi-xsd  up  with  your  S59- 
retary.      They  have?   givsn  the  rsiison  why  they  wanted  to  drop 
270  dairic^s   and   take  on  393.     You  knew  all  about    that    ana   it 
was  satisfactory  to   the  OoBsaission  at   tbjit    tiaa.     That  doos 
not,  ho'^avsr,    increase    th,;  volume  of  milJc  availablv;  for  us   to 
tice  here    as  fluid  rruUc  when  wa  ^ant   it.        That    is   the   situ- 
ation,   and    that  i^.  whore    the  unsonndnaes  of  this   thing  coasa   in. 


V. '  ^'-.^'s^j-iv   •?u>d.:.'   'y?J« 


i,.-:,,E.  '  i^--i'j'-     f-. 


Oiiairman  ALVSYi,     As  I  imderstand  it,   'Ar*  Pattas  grants   to 
take  ¥.0V3mbar  30  as  of  the  list  of  d'^aiers  furnishing  milk  to 
tha  dealer©,    and   call  that   a  closed  list,    and  that  any   lairiss 
taksn  altar   tiiat  will  jiava   to  stand  the   surplus,   if   thare   is  one- 
That   is,   th:ire  will  ba  a  preference  tn«re, 

:i.r,   CUSIC3K.        Can  the   aoiamission   do   that? 

OhJ.i.rmm  /iL_-:¥.       Tha  rii»gular  surplus  plJJi  only  pro-ratssd 
back  to   the  producer  what  hs  h-id  bean  ch-irgsd  with,    in  sonnac- 
tion  with  tha  surplus.     It  dia  not  a^e  a  pr^^firr inca   as  batween 
the   oldar  and  new-^r  produo-^rs,   diu  not  practically  put    tj-ie  bur- 
den on   ths  fellow  who   cams  in  as  a  na'*  producer  of  getting  a 
less  price   than  a  producer  who  was  on  ths  list  Hovi'm&sr  30. 

Hr.  PATTSS.  I  ^a  going  to  ask,  in  all  gooa  faith,  viiiy  the 
ffltai  who  comes  into  this  aarkst  sna  craatas  a  surplus  shoiiid  not 
bear  it  to  the  ©xtent  that  ha  crsati^^s  it  xn  this  aarki^t,  rather 
than  paissing  it  along  onto   thosa  vifh.o  do  not  er!*ut«i  it? 

Ohair/SJH  ALL;:'M»        As  I  understand  it,    tiae  answsr  of   the 
other  sid«  is    this:   In  the  noriaal  course   of  o-jsin.sc   tii^y  have 
to   go  out   and  get  outside   business. 

Mr^   PATTiiS*      Yas,    -And  to   th<^  extent    that   thity  ne-^d    those 
dairiss,   there   is  no  g-jrplus    to  cJiargQ  to  anybody. 

Oomm»   BI"RiK      Suppose   th-3  Hood  Oompanj  lost  20  of  its   pro- 
ducers  in   the-  month  of  Decesbdr  - — 

Comau  MUBi303K.       Or  suppog-is   t:n<3y  wsnt  out  of  business. 

Cosun.   BII?D.     Yes,    or   Guppos«(    they  ¥*v--nt  out  of   business, ;ind 

ths  Hood  Goajpany  should  toks  on  20  otiicir  producers    to  fill   tlioir 

placvis.     Your  idaa  is   that   thos«  na»  product^rs   should  bear  the 

burden  of  th^^  Bood  Cornp;*ny*s  surplus  mora   than  anybody  elsa»   5Jow 

in  that  Cisa   tnat  is  not  due   to  any  ovisrloading  on   th3  part  of 

ths  I'ood  Gompany. 

Ooasa.  MO!?^IS.      I   don't   think  you  quits  got  Uv»   Patta^'s 
point.     As  I   understand  it, if   th-jrcj   is   a  surplus  of  ailk  oris- 


f  t    ■_ 


112 

ing  firoBJ  ths  producers  alr<5ady  on  th#  list,   or  that  ware  on  th® 
list  «p  to   tho  30th  of  IJoverabsr,   they  will  baar  that  surijlus* 
as   they  have  been  baaring  it. 

S2r.    PATT3E.      Yss. 

Oomm,  5£0'H!?IS.  Than,  in  addition  to  that,  if  thara  is  a 
further  surplus  crsat'sd  by  parties  takan  on  sino_'  thsit  dsita, 
they  "soul'i  only  get  the  surplus  pries  for  all  the  milk  going 
to  m:i3c©  up   that  surplus? 

Mr.    PATTYS.      Yee,      Thay  war^  not  needed,   3ir.   Ohairman,   aa 
producers   of  raiUc  for  this  month.      Theyv«ars    token  on  by   the 
dealer  in  accordance  with  his  judgment,   or  raprasentations   that 
th«y   could  get  hi^-;*r  pricaa  for  their  milic,   and  thfsy  turned 
it  into    this  market,    and   then   the   previous  producera  ar«i  asked 
to  baar  a  part   of  the  loos  whioh  is  suff.--'rQd  beociuse   of    tha 
dealer  talcing  on  dairies  ishish  ha  did  not  njad. 

Comm.  MlTRIXi'^IK.  Your  point  is  that  this  tt;nds  to  bring 
into  thia  market  sjilk  that  ??ould  not  normally  come  into  this 
Har.ket? 

S2r»   PAITKE.      It   certainly  dosg,    and   it  opans   itself    to 
this  objection.      I   am  not  citing  this  as   a  sp-^cific  case,   but 
am  giving  it  hypo that ically. 

Er»  OOOK.     We  will  accept  it. 

Mr.  PATTBIil.     A  daaler  operating  alongsidi  of  or  in   the 
neighborhood  of  a  oreajB-iry  section  aiay,   xmlQT   ths  present  plan 
ssithout  aaaandraant,    tap  th.it  creamery   section,    solicit  from  m-n 
ssndins  railk   to  that  creaaasry  some  of   the  best  dairies,    and 
in   that  v?ay,  without  ronioving  a  large  ^xioiint  of  milk,  laay  so 
cripple  that  creamery   ac   to  put   it  out  of  business.     If  hs 
suffers  any  loas  froia  taking  on   too  much  milk,  ho   can   apportion 
It  among  aiil  hie?  proiucc-rs.     He  do.28  not  ne.id  to   suffer  any  loss 


3  JU  ■''      i  i 


-?  T:' 


^<::^t  "i:     «j 


■hiZ     ,.,^-:,.£:. 


XX3 

himself.     He  may  apportion  it  aaong  all  the   ^rsen  whose  supply 
previous   to  his   doing   tiiis  was  adequate   to  his  ne-ads,    as  far  as 
the  market  was   concamed. 

wOiom.  i4Ul?D00K.      I    suppose   that  might  possibly  ba  modifisiid, 
so   that  dealers  aight  take  on  n^ft  producers  in  place  of   thosa 
■whom  thsy  had  lost? 

Mr.   PATT5S.      Perhaps  you  can  phrase   that   in  a.  different 
way»   indicating  that  more  spacifieally,   but  I   think  it  is   cover- 
ed in   triis  provision,    that   if  any  part   of    the  milk  aade  by   the 
naw  dairies  taken  on  is  ne^idsd  to  make  up  the    trade  surplus, 
the   sales  of  the  do^aiers  reiuired  to   carry  that  part  of  it  shsill 
be  considered  whole  milk  and  paid  for  as  such.  • 

0oBi2s»   C*ILARS.        What  encouragement  would   tliere   be   for  any 
man   ^o  go   into   \h&  business  of  producing  milk  if  your  suggestion 
were   adopted? 

Mr.   PATTK3.     What   do  you  m^an? 

Oomm.   O'HARS.       What  inducement  would  there  be   to  any  citi- 
sen  who   Aantel   to  go  onto  a  farm  and  produce  aiilk.    If  your  sug- 
gestion was   adopted? 

Mr.  PATTSE.  I  do  not  know,  i;r.  Oommissionar,  exactly  what 
you  are  driving  at.  The  market  price  of  his  milk  is  d^  ■.&rmi.n^d 
by   these   conditions. 

Ooara,  O'HARii.     iSfeli,   put  it    tJaa  other  -A-ay,     If  your  sug- 
gestions Vf-yre  adopted,  would  it  discourage  the  production  of 
milk  by  new  dai.ri;;a  or  naw  farmers? 

Mr,   PATT5J2.     I    t^iink  not,  most  decidedly.      It  would  cer- 
tainly encourage, mistily  encourage,    the  production  of  milk  by 
the  dairies   already  making  milk,    because   they  would  realize 
that    they  *ere   not  to  be   ohar?«d  »ith  a  loss  made   by  taking  on 
new  dairies   that  -Asre  not  necessary. 

Comm.   O'HARS.     And   it  would  have   a  tendency  to  traeze  the 


"■!-:r^?    i; 


.".f      K.LiJ' 


Iv^A-J^^- 


*,       ^  ■(,■ 


■;'fMi  "'Xii    ■;.;;';€- ':i7'0'> isj^?.  ;t^ 


t  -      .-■•'".  :' ■'7''; ''*■'■  '    '■■ 
•'   •■ » -"-^    - 


114 
Other  fellos.   out? 

2Sr.  PAtTSS.  I  don*t  see  it.  To  tha  extent  that  that  mlUc 
is  nocessary  in  connection  with  the  supply,  it  is  providod  that 
he  shall  get    tiie  ahois  milk  price. 

Coaisasaioner  0*iiAl^.     Qan  you  exxiiain  ho*  ha  could   coiiae  in 
and  obtain  the  saijj©   treafeaent  and  enootira^^adnt  as  the  otli«r 
fallow? 

Sr.   PATTSS*     If   the  laark^t  would  absorb  his   silk,   he  would 
gyt    th3  whole  milk  price  for  it.      If  i  t  didn't,   presiimably  he 
would  g-3t    tha  saae  price  tliat  hs   ie  ^tzing  now  for  it, 

Coaan.  O'HAPS.     If  you  wer«  starting  in  as  a  farmer  and  had 
to  b3  treats  as  you  suggest  no*,   vna^r  your  eugigestion,   how 
long  do  you  thinX  you  would  produce  miUc? 

Kr,   PATT-SS*     let  ae  ana^'sr   th^at  tiie  oth-sr  s^ay  to, 

Gofaas,  O'KABE.  !p3l£ing  all  tiia  chances  that  a  nss  aan  wo-old 
have    *o   tak.'d? 

Mr,   F-^TTB-S.,     I  would  not  cay   tiait  it  would  affact  the 
present  dairy  situation  i-n   fJhs  Isast.     Thert*  isroiild  be  no  a^n 
vihc  aould   go  out  of  producing  millt  vmo  is   ViOa   in  it,   under  this 
plan,  whose  milk  vas  not  brou^t   in  here,    but  xaany  nen  have 
seriously  contampl-uted  ^ing  out,   arHJ  hav3  actually  gone  out, 
and  tiisrs   is  aliaogt,  a  state  of  rsbsllion  i.n   the  sin/^a  of  pro- 
ducers already  imking  milk  for   this  aarjc^it,   bscausa  of   the  fact 
that    tha   daaisrs  ara  allowsd,  with  an  increasing  supply,    to  ^o 
out  and  add  naw  dairies  and  charge  bick  the  surplus    to   thoss 
dairiijs   thsy  have  iilraady  had,  to    r.hs   nifji   that  did  not  make  it. 

Chairman  ALLiSlT.     Don't   the  figuroa  sho>,   although  this 
has   Dean  going  on  for  two  or   thrse  months,   ^as  ffur  ae   th©  '«hole 
silk  soli  or  usod  is  concornsd,    tnat   they  did  not  buy  aoro  zailk 
than   they  naided  for  th^   normal  rxm  of   tha  business?     What  do 
thosi.  figures  show? 


'CX-i-A^C  Oi 


r.~  >       n 


■  .X^.k' 


■  •■'  -5  rr  /.    'K 


115 

Mr.  PATTEE.     A  very  smaOJ.  surplus   in   the  month  of  Novismber. 

Ciiairman  KLL2^»     It  seems   to  ma  vshat  you  are   oonsidaring 
now  is  going  b  ck   to   the   condition  of  aff aijrs   l>afory    the  sur- 
plus plan  was  adopted.     Unless  you  can  put  your  finger  on  soma 
real  unfairness,   it  sa-'mo   to  31Q    the  Oommission  ought  not   to   take 
ttrao  to  50   into    this  matter  in  all  this  detail  again,   because 
the  surplus  plan  wao   thi'sshed  ov^ir,    and  it  viois  pasnad  ai'tur 
considarition   to   the   point   you   are   now  bringing  up,        ilofe,   what 
producers  have    b^on  hurt  by   the  surplus  pl'in,    or  ^uliere  iiis  it 
hurt    the  producers? 

Ur.   PATTEB.      I   sup^^ose  you  want   specific   inl'ormAt.j.-^n? 

OhairQan  ALDilH.      You  ire  xaaking  suggest  ions  which  woxild 
re.iliy  change    the  basic  idea  of   th^  surplus  plan,    and  '»v0  want 
to  get  at   the  r-'aaons  for  that,  •  '.     • 

Mr.  PA'PTES.      I   cannot   see  wherein  this  really  changes  tha 
basic  idea*     As  I  understand  the   o'orplus  plan,   it   ckargtrd  the 
losn   arising  from  the   siirplus    to    the   xaan  who   created   it. 

Chaircian  AUxiiM,      Inhorsntly,   yas. 

Mr,   PATTSiv.      llow,    tiie-n,    if    tia   dealers   go   out  and  solicit 
and    actually   engage  Siilk  froa  n-aw   dairies,   whacia  milk   creates 
a  surpltis,    then    th^j  na^  dairias  to    thd  iixlant   that    they   create 
that  surplus   should  bear  it.      That   is   all  we?   asic.  ■  ■ 

Ohairmaa  ALLJJI.        Has   it   worked  out   io   xhe  disadvantage 
of   tJ-ie   others? 

Mr,   PATTSE.      Yes,    to    thsir  disadvantage. 

Chairman  ALLIaN.      The  figures   seam  to    saovs    that    ths   d:ialer8 
did  not  ov^r-buy.  ,      .        ,     . 

'Mt',  PAT'iSS.     Is    that  a  fair  assumption? 

Mr,   OUSiaK.      It   is    tha    truth;    it  is  not  an  assumption. 

Mr.    ?ATT3ii.     Mt^   than  that,    th«   adoption  of    ttUe  plan 
would  not  in  any  way  penalize  or  handicap   the*   njw  dairies   to 


■<\'-   .^^x'.. 


-",    .  ^-t. 


:■(•    ^-s. 


116 


the  extent  that   their  milk  was  needed. 

Mr.  WKITISa.  fc'oxiid  i.{r.  Pattae's  objection  &^3  set  if  that 
wars  iiiaited  to  new  territory  or  ext^jnsion  of  routes  into  naw 
tonritoriso  from  ticic    to   tioje? 

Cyh-ilrcian  ALLIIN.      If  it  were  siiaply  a  aiatter  of  chimging 
the  numbjr  of  producers   to  a  giv«n  ddoier,    to  maintain   tlie  nor- 
mal buainues,   I   don't  undt;rstand  that  iir.   Patteii  would  obj;jCt 
to    that,   b«5Cau8«   that  com^s  along  in   the   nonaal  coursa  of 
events. 

Mr.   SKITING.      I    undsrst-ind  that,  he   did  liait    the.-   list   of 

dairies    to   those   selling  ITovsmber  *iOth. 

not 

^r.   PATTSE.      Perhaps  Hr.  Vihiting  .has   >;-j«rd   this  r,.ad,   but 

it  provides,    in   the;   cjisq   of  a  surplus  arising  in  tiiis  v»ay, 
that  froffi  *>at  surplus  shall  be  tiik^n  t'n.&  amount  of  ssllX  pro- 
duced by  new  dairies  bsfora  thtsrs   is   a  charge   b&ck  on   th.i  old 
dairies.  -  —  :■-.-.    ■■■^  ■;■,.  ■• 

Mr.  WHITIHG.     What,    in  your  siind,  constitutes  a  nev*  dairy? 
The    8.ilir   of   a  i*ana  from  John  Jones   to  ?obart  Fmith,-  is   that  a 
naw  dairy?        Of    ooursa,    that  means   a  change  on  ths  dairy  list, 
but  it   IS  not  rsally  a  n^w  dairy,    is  it?     It  do-sn't  produce 
mora  rsilk.     Wow,    this  very   list   submitted    to  Dr.    Gilbs^rt  gives 
just  those   transactions,   whers   th-^rs  are  sales, whercs  a  faria 
'may  go  from  father  to  son,   whare  there   is  siasply  a  ch.^n-;^  of 
n-iffla,   but  where   the  dairy  does  not  chan^^ie,    and  where   the  voiuae 
of  railk  doss  not  change.     Or  dairi^js   ars  changinr;  from  craaa 
j  to  milk  or  from  tr.il^  back  to   crisia*     Thora   is  th^   same  volums 
of  dairy  product  eocsing  to   tha  market,  however.      I   thought  ISr, 
Pattee  ciight  hiVd'   in  ijiind  p->rhaps   tha  iiiaitation  or  ioking  on 
of   nsw  territory,   or  extensi'">n  of  territory  of  oxioting  routes. 
Of  course,   there  will  bci  j.  surplus  of  milk  beginning  Januiiry 


'i,fC    N-' 


'amn 


:i  '^^fljg-eni/   -^x      '■'^i-^ 


V  -^     ^^  -*■  ■   js  \  ■ 


t  -■  ■■  -     '>'. 


;.      i'    .•:ni>- 


.i\i.  i. 


i.      •■"  ■    .i 


€ 


JUL5f 

ist,   or  an  ovv^^r-aupply  of  milk,   and  tliti  prudent  dealer  isoiiid 
not  tike  on  r^xtra  xtiiil-v,   I    should   think,   in  vlsw  of  sxistinc: 
condition©. 

Oiiainaan  ALUiN.      i   would  like  to    litik   any   tiiw   dsolors  ahoiiid 
go  out   'jnd  buy  n-jors  ailk  than  ha  wants   at  a  certain  period  — 
couldn't  it  O'j  Tor  turning  it   into  biii;.ar,   or  what   is   tiiu   ;id- 
vantage  of  tailing  on  mor.3  milk? 

Mr,   ?A7TS£.     !fo,    sir.   We  find   tJiat    the>r=j    ar<s   these    applica- 
tions now  from   time    to   time,    ana    tl'itsr'j?   is    rhio  cor.aition   that 
confronts  us,    ^nd  it  rsaets  en  us. 

Ohairavin  aLLJLV.     ^Iiat   do  you  fear,-   tliav.   thoy  will  do   that? 

Mr.   PATTxi'^.     Well,    thd   thing  has  b-an  i-'Ut  up  to  us,    aa  I 
have  stated. 

Chaxnnan  ALLK¥.        Your  foar  is   xor    thd  futuris? 

Mr.   PATTSE.      We   have   sufforsci   in    tha   paet. 

Ohairaan  ALL2N*      Since   this   sxirplue  plan  went  into  dfxact? 

Mr.    PA7TE:2.      I  would   suggest    that   it   >»as  only  apparently 
at  tha  Vr^ry  aarnast  aolicitaticn  —  or  i   -^fould  r^sciaa    i^iO  word 
"apparently"    --  of   this   organization  that  za-^m   f.  as  no  such 
surplus    charge-back  allow-jd  during   thw  istonth  ol    iov^mbxir, 

Ohairm^'an  ALLi.H,        Because   tiisre   siisn*  t  a.ny  surplus,    »>-43.s 
thara  ? 

Mr,   PATT2S.      If   I    rarsamb^jr   correctly,    thw   claim  was  ma4.s 
that    thsra   viiis   a  surplus   at   that    time. 

Ohairajan  ALLIIJ.      Vary  s.-aali? 

SfcT.  PATTi:::^.      vas. 

OoffliB.   BI'HD.  Mr.   Pattee,    you  fe^jl    that  you  havvj   b^-m  hur-t 
by   this? 

Air,   PATTB3.  Absolutely. 

Goam,   BIM>.  Kave  you  analyzed  theS'S  figures   carafuliy'* 

Mr.    ?A?r.t2.  I   don't  knovt  what  r^u  call  "carefully",    but 


3 


I  have  glvsn  thsm   sose  study,. 

C6ffiiB,  BIRD.  Kow  xMoh  fluctuation  do  ycu  figure  that  tksre 
would  Bopsallj'  bs  through  dairies  leaving?  dealere,  going  out  cf 
business,   or  through  ehecgee  in  the  usual    oourse  of  huelnese  s- 

ttccg  thees  different  dealsrer    What  pero-sctags  do  ^cu  thick  would 
be  fair?'"  i 

Mr.    PATTKg.      Ghaoging   frcjce  dealer  to   d«el8P? 
COasE.  .BTBD,     Yes  Bir,   brought   about  b>  the  dlairies  thesE— 
eslvse,    either  b^oe-uee  of  the  dalriee  charging  or  «oing  out  of 
business,    selling  out,   soarething  of  the  kind, -what  would  you  fig- 
ure was  the  reacocsble  percentage  of  fiuctvisticn? 

Mp.-PATT^.     T   would  net  answer  thet  question,   offhandj-  , 

ver^   little   shifting   froie  dealer  to  dealer,. 

Coaas,   BIFD.     Anal^r^ing  this,  you  sse  that   the  Aldsn  Broth- 
ers h^y®  t?o  y^0m-t  lese  dalriee  now  than  they  hsd  in  MayT 
Mr.    F^TTES.      Yee,, 

Oosjaj.   EIBC .     Taking   the   -iiiffarenoe  beti^ee-E  those  tatken  on 
and  thos»  thst  they  left  ofr,   they  now  havt>  t#o  perot^nt   Isesr 
Mr.   PATTSE.      Yes. . 

Ooij?nc.   BIRD.     The  Whiting  OosEpany   shOisre  nine  percent  asore, 
the  O.-Bpighaa  Company  show©  fourteen  percent  aope,    ^nd  the  Sla: 
Far®   OojBteny    esven   percent   lees,  fpoffi  the   fir©t  cf  May.. 
ISr..PATTEE.      Yes.. 

0OE3?.,ETPQ,      Just  hear  thst   *'oald   ail    o,ve?#.ge  in  voluae  T 
den't  knoi^. 

Mr.   PATTSS.      ^-sy  T   suggest,   M?.    CojriBt&Pionsr,    that   that   is 
not   reslly   pertinent.    It   seesis  to  ae,   to  the  j. ropcsitlon,.    These 
dalriee  -^ere  needed  to  realntalri  tbe  supfly,   a  jsran's  buslnese 
aight  grow  and  he  alght   be  f srfeotly   Justified  In  tftklng  on 


t  !■-     ~. 


rr  n?-^^ 


T-  , .       •--  •■ ' 


■  j  .'  V  J     1 ; 


;ii       '^.c 


new  dairies,   either  to  replace   those  lost,    to  mast  greater 
necassitiee,   or  for  any  other  r.^ason*    and   to    tha  sxtsnt  that 
he   does   that    there   is  no  loss   to  charts   baok   to    ths  produc- 
ei's.        But  if  h©  goas   out  .and   takss   on  dairies   that  hs   does 
not  ne3d»    then  aithtir  h&  or   they  should  bear  the  loss  by 
reason  of  Ms  doin;^  so.        The  other  rr:an  had  nothing    to  do  with 
it;   it  -was  something  bvyond  his    aontrol,   and  ha  seriously 
objects   to   a  d^al^jr  going  out  ;md  buying,   on  his  own  bast 
possible   jud@aent  but   fals^i  jud^m^nt,   product   that  he  does 
not  need,    and   than  protecting  hisisalf  entiri'ly  by   charsing 
It  back  on  to    those  dairies   V:m.t  h&  did  n^ed* 

CosRj*  3mD.       Wall,   porsonally,    aa  Oonyalsaioner,   I  huve 
a  groat  dtial  of  sympathy  »ith  what  you  are   trying  to   do. 
You  ors   trying  to  protsot  yourseivee  froja  i^iid  buying  on  the 
part    nf   tha  dealar? 


'A 


117 

ist,   or  an  ov«r-8upply  of  rnilk. 

Iff.   PATTSS.      Yec,   sir'. 

Gosim.  BIHD.     On   tha   other  h;arKl»   I  don't  se©  how  your  resjedy 
is  applicable,    capable  of  being  actually   #orketi  out,    it.  is  your 
remedy   that   troubles  me  !Sor-e   t:;an  ycur  --- 

Mr.   PATTSE.      Disease. 

Coam.   BIRD.       Disease.      I  .Tiaan,    tnat  I  agree  with  you  that 
th'srs   is  a  poaaibility  of   tri.-}  disease,   but  -xh&'Jnor  your   rz-medy 
is   going  to  be  so   cuisbersciae   that   it  v/ili  oa   irapossibie    to    asork 
tho   thin;^  out,    ic  rather  a  question   in  my  aiini. 

Mr.  PATTES.  I  ao  not  b-^lieve  that  after  r-jasonabia  study 
th£5  Oommissionar  would  find  it  impossible,  and  I  do  think  triat 
he  wo\ild  finj   it  officaoious- 

Mr.   OOOK.     Mr.   Ghairsjin,    thia  discusaion  i3  just   tha   aaiaa 
kind  of  discussion  in  regard  to  proiucts  as  aigiit   bs  imd  in  re- 
gard  to    tho   production  of  boots,  isire,  or  i^ny  oih^r  caaaaaroiai 
product  —  commodity.   Tha  product   that  you  wijih   to  sarktst  de- 
pends entlraly  on  periods  of  laxation  of    ths   cav.s.  1  sm  &  baoic- 
to- the -lander,   in  1904  starting  a  cr.^aBiery  at  Mt.  Holly,  Ye  raont. 
I  marketed  iny  onn  product  ana   tJion  went  on  incrt^aeiffig  until  I 
got  a  fairly  extsnsiva  products     But   thc-'rs  would   c^   tia^s   in 
that   country,   in  tha  territory  frois  which  I  drew  say  supply  ©x- 
clusiveiy,   when  thars    »ovld  be   55   units  of  distribution  par  day, 
and  than,   in   that   stme  a.r&3.,   55  units  of   distribution  per  'fte^k, 
Thsre  would  bs,    for  instance,   a  faain«  in  Novwabisr  and  :)ac'3mber 
and   In  :%y  ana  June,    it  was  a  nightaare,   ovifing  to  ov-r-suppiy. 
And  this  was  th«  situation  wiili  &v-bry  othar  d'isX&r  that   I   cacjs? 
in  contact  with. 

Chairman  AlIJvN.     You  aru  supporting  tho  de-alaro*    stand- 
point? 

Mr.   GOOK.     Wall,   ay  position  is  .-ror^   a  rj&nerrii  one,    bd- 

bauB2   I  have  bsen  a  dealer  anci  aiao  a  producer. 


i 


■!   .,.     N-N-'V 


XJ.O 

Chairman  ALUSU.     Pardon  la©.     Ara  you  ct>ttaking  for    tiitt 
Pat  Ids;  resolution  or  against  it? 

Mr.  GOCi:,     JTo.      I  am  ©sing   to  speak  Tor  and  agsiinat  it 
before  I   get  dons.     ?Jo*i,  ilr*  Pat  tee,    if  he  kmows  any  tiling  about 
the   production  or  milk,  knows   that  ¥ov«inb-.ir  a-nd  BaCc-aber  art* 
the  fsuiaiae  montJis.     May  una  June   ara  the  Taast  aontha,   and 
evei-y  other  montli  is  either  a  Taast  or  a  f anjins ,     jroK,    the 
daal'.rr  has  always   boun  obiig-dd  to  provide  for  hiia3t.lf   in  June 
such  a  quantity  as  would   tik^   Cvuro  of  hia  In  i/ovembar  and 
Dec^aaber,   and   take   :;are  of   tho  surplus,    and  xintil  sO-.   P&ttee's 
clients  will  bid  for  a  mora  gquitabia  production  I    think  sia  is 
going   to  have   troubiy  with  his  surplus,    and  if  2r,  Pattss  is 
setting  up  an  artificial  standard  without  talcing  into   consider- 
ation th<5  p-^^ciiliaritiijs     of   the  farxater  and  his  cowa,    thers  wHl 
bii   trouble. 

Ohairaan  ALL-SfT.      TaB  Ooiami  scion  his  discus  sad   that  si  gs-aat 
many   I iaca . 

Mr.   COOK..        In  some;  raspects  lir.    ?attas   is  right,   only  if 
he  knows  anything  about  jaarkatiag  he  knows  that  many  of   t.iioae 
present  patrons   taken  on  aftyr   the  SOth  of  Movssabar  are   taksa 
on  at     a     bonus.      You  know   that,    do  you  not? 

Mr,   PAT7SE.      I  wouldn't  like   to  state   that, 

Mr.   OOQK.     As  a  aiattar  of  cold   fact,   -Kh^n  vii  ar-3   atung  jre 
win  go  out  and  buy  ffiilk  at  any  prisa   at  which  \^i  can  got.  it, 
temporarily.       Thoas  dairies   taken  on  aftor  the  40 th  of  liovm- 
ber  are  tsdcen  on   tt^inporarily,    and  in  ^lany  inst^^nc^s   they  are 
paid  hy   the  dealers  a  hi^jh-irr  price    tlran   th^jir  constant  yoar- 
round  producers.      Tiiat  is   a  condition  that  obtains   in  wy  sec- 
tion,   and  ie  in  exiotence   th-^iru    today.     Bight  at    th-a  self   sasie 
station  one  .'Ban  will  by  selling  his  milk  at  one  pries,   because 
th«   dealer  takes  his  ailk  365  days  xn  th-i  ye^ar,   if  he  has  it. 


^^OR.    .,  V- 


•  *-  I    "-     J. 


■'.     :  ::     '■•■ 


..Ye  s 


OJLV 

but   if  he  do«ssn*t  have   it  six  or  eight  %@ak8,   mian  h3  is   short 
in  th«j  faains   aeason  of  Tlovamber  and  Decambar,    the  di'alar  goss 
up  t/iere  and  goog  to   th9  peepis  who  have  got  it  and  simply  con- 
tracts  to  get  ©nou^  jaiUc  to  hold  his    trads,   b'ica^uss  ha   is 
coasnittad  to  hia   custosi*;re  for  365  days   in   the   viiQT,    and  he 
g«»te  it  trcm  eoma  souroe,    if  he  can,   ar»j:y  i>aok  in    thi  hiils. 

'Jhalrmim  ALIJ5M.     Ars  you  fasiiliar  ^ith  r.he   surplus  plan 
under  which  ws  ara  working? 

Mr.  OOCSli.     Somewhat « 

Chairsian  ALLSU.  What  sxi^gestion  would  you  hivsre,  in  line 
with  Mr«  PattQt3*s,  to  put  Isot'ora  tha  Ooaimioaion  ^e  to  haaidiing 
this? 

Mr»  OOOK.     I  don*t  knois   tjiat  I   srould  hava  ajay  guggsstion. 
I   am  not  personally  intersstsd  either  in  th^  produc^sr  or  the 
consusier. 

Dhairaan  ALt..^^l.     fell,  you  know  that  a  g«sndral  srorking 
surplus  plan  ie  new  put  into  force? 

Mr.   OOOK*     I  don't  kno^  about  it  intisiately,   becaus^i    ths 
Ooasstission  did  not  ooiaa   into  existsnce  until  aftar  I  got  out 
of   the  business,  and  I  onlj'  have  a  knowl^dQe   in  the  sost  g-^naral 
way*      I  hava  n^v^r  disousaad  it   speciTic^iily.     But  I    do  knov 
about  those  points  ~  tfia  point  of  production,    ajid   the  fact 
that  ths  temporary  dairy  often  gets  a  higher  pries. 

Oosjsu  M012??IS.     You  don't  mean  to  say   that  sinotf    the  Qoa- 
aiesicn  amm  into  fores  eoras  aairiee  have   be-ira  gst-'-ing  a  high«ir 
prica   tJian  otjiars? 

Mr.   OOOC*     Certainly  1   do. 

Oosaa,  JiIORBIS.     Sailing:  to   thi  Boston  saarkdt? 

»r«  OCOI?:.     Selling  milk  which  ia  shlppad  to    tha  Boston 
aaj^fe  t  • 

OoajBft.  M01R1US.     What  avidence  have  you  of  that? 


'  ^-'.'Vx'i.  'Z  ■"■  -*•'  "**      '^'  X     <'.'-'  '^•'i'-' 


iSTm  OOOK.     Well,    the  known  iooal  price.      I   auLeso  know  soms 
people  «lio  are  taking  less. 

Ooasi.  SIORTflS.     Oan  you  cits  soma  of  thoss   instances,   glva 
names? 

Mr»   GfOC^.        I   shouldn't   care   to  do  that. 

Goaun.  MOB"RIS.     You  know  who   they  are  selling   to? 

^r.   OOOK..      I   don't  know  that  I   would   care    to  say  that.      I 
sUB  not  hera   to  get  anybody  in   trouble. 

Oomrn.  MOTfRIS.     I  know,   but  you  are  trying   to  givs   the 
Oomzaiscion  some   information*    ona   the  Goxaaission  is  looking  ior 
infonaation. 

Sr.   OQCM..       Well,   I   don*  t   think  it   is  a  fair  proposition 
to   :isk  m^  publicly   to  say  what   a  friend  of  laine  possibly  is 
doing.     Thero  are  a  gr^at  majoy   tjriings   thitt   tisae  OommtB&xon  has 
not  authorised  that  are  being  done   by  both  sides. 

Chairman  ALLEH.      In  otli®r  words,  you  don*t  iik^   to  give 
a^ay  a  good   thing  liks   that? 

Mr.   OOOK.     Why,   it  is  no  good  thing   to  ws*     But  thoss   are 
conditions   that  do  exist. 

Ghaina^i  ALLiiK.     Well,    the  Cosimission  only  establishes  a 
ainiaua  prise.      Tne  t:urm^r  csn  get  a  higher  price   than   that 
estahiisV^d  by  the  OoREuission.     We  cannot  and  don*t   want  to 
stop   that,    if  h-3  oan  do  it»     :     , 

Mr.  OOOiU     Well,   fluoh  a  san  as  I  hive  referred  to,    taken 
oa  temporarily,    ia  asrely  a  surplus  mon  for   the  dealer,     h^  is 
likely    to  b«  dropped  any  day. 

Mr,  EIMMEBMAK.      I  ^ouid  liks   to  back  up    tlrie   guntlS2aan*8 
stateisent.     At   tiiaes  one  mm  will  be  piid  a  o^nt  or  t'«*o  more, 
a  good  mm,   for  laiik.     I   don*t  know  tnat  the  Goaanission  hiS  any 
powe'r  Gvsr   the  State  of  Vermont,   whether  it  has  po«>.3r   to  t^ike 
action  in  regard  to   a  thing  lxks»   that,   but  I   will   tell  you 


.■Sff , 


^.•w 


^o ,;.  •  -.  v  y...  iT;,^  til.   ;.    .c  v^y  _  ru: 


.'^     i.', 


;.    C^-  '.  ■••'    I 


another  thing.     Tha  only  way  to  g©t  rid  of  the  surplus   and  ra- 
duoe   th&  priovi  o£  milk  io   to  g-it    tiis  people   to  buy  more  siillt, 
to  consigns  aora  mlXk<     Tliat   is   the  risiit  ^ay  to  do   it.   felaere 
t}:ey  are   taking  a  pint,    gat  tham  to   take    t^yo;   whssre   thsy  jire 
taking  a  ^uart,   gut   them  to  take  two.     Therti  is    tho  gaa©.     If 
you  set   th9   pric^  too  hl^,    it    causes   ti^   consximiir   to  sXack 
off,    at  the  otiior  end.     The  only  way  is   to  find  the  aaai'gin  bis- 
t«»tjan  what  you  would  call    th<i  overhead   cost,   b^twesin    the  price 
the  farmer  gate  and  what  the   contractor  g:;t8,   and  then  place 
your  price  accordingly,     ^'or  instance,   if   the  ovarh^ad  figure 
is  3  cnts,    and   tho  f  ura^r  gets  9    c-^nts,   9   Q.nl  3  would  ba  12. 

Shairssan  ALLSJT.      That  is  what  w©  a^re   trying  to   do. 

Mr.  ZIlfeSBiSAH.     Sow,    tha  price   is  IG-l/^   c^nts.   Wouldn't 
it  bs  better  to  settle   the  surplus  at  about  15  cents,    say,    in 
tha  stasBiJ^r  sionths,   and  let   tha   consumer  get    Gis   bsnafit  of  it? 
I  hiv^n*t   the  figvurea  so  as   to  know  what  tha  contractor  iaokas. 
I   don't  know   that.     But  we  do  knos  what   the   cost  prlci*  of  UiQ 
milk  is.     That   is  what  we  do  know  for  a  f ict. 

Mr,   PATTSiil.     Might   I    suggest    to    th^  Cossaission,    inasmuch 
18   this  3G-3ffi8   to  b«  z*ather  a  startling  proposal,    that  it  giva 
some  study  to    the  mattar,   axid  possibly,    bafor©  isaking  a  i;:2Cis- 
ion  on  it,    givs   a  furthsropporttmity   to  be  heard? 

Ohairman  AliS^t.     If   th*r#   is  no  obj«iCtion,    tha   suggw'Stion 
)3y  Ut*  Pattee  will  bs  takan  up  by   tha  Sxecutiv-3  Co^Blttse, 

Mr»  OUSIOK.     If   that  is  ao,   sa  '^ant    to  bi  notified  arhen 
they    take   it  up.     Wo  don't   .vaot   too  xaany   tilings   taksm  up  that 
we  know  nothing  about* 

Goasa.  aOSBIS.     If    the  CSidirraaa  doas  not  object,   I  would 
liK^    to  haar  what  tha  arguaients  ara. 

Ohainaan  ALLEM.     All  ri,2ht,    than.     It  will  not  hs  r^ferrad 
to    th«  SxQCutlva  Oojamltt^e.     fe'e  will  hear  it  now. 


.*i.-  \ 


f-i.   :•* 


1:=:.: 


:■  .'-iv:      iu.: 


■;'i.-      V: ,.       .;i  :  'j'  J* 


122 

Mr.   OUSICjr*     Mr.   Ohainaan,   you  have  now  in  your  surplus 
olause   tha  very  provision  that  ha  wants.     You  havd   threchad 
out  this  wild-buyin.?j  proposition  for  days  ar.ddays  fe'isfora  you 
©s^'.ablished  your  nurplus  clause.     At   tlrat   time  you  ordered  us 
to  givs  you   thy  number  of  dairies   that  we  v»ere  purahasing  froa 
up   to   a  certain   tiiae.     We   nare   then  diractsd,  whsn  wa   took  a 
new  one  on,    to   coac    to  your  secrstary  and  give  hla  the  reason 
why.     At  that  tim«,    Uiat   s."3.s   the   bDst  i?fay  the  OosBmiseion  could 
find   to  handle   th«   thing.        It  is?  now  the  bast  ^^ay.      If  it  isiil 
halp  Mr.  Pattae  or  anybody  elss  out,   if  you  «ant  tha   list  of 
dairies  up   to  Jan^iiry  1st,   wa  can  furnish  it,   and   than  >xft<sr 
January  let,   during  the-   three  rrsntha  ensuing,   *e   can  inform  you 
of  avery  dairy  '«.^   take  on.     If  jou  direct  us  not  to  take   it  on, 
^3  cannot,   I  suppose.     That  was  your  theory  of    the  siirplus 
clause;    that  was   thd  be-st  rea^dy  you  could  sugg^est.     It  is   the 
only  remedy,   on  atccount  of  ths  business.     You  hav-   to  d^tarmine 
at   the   tiiaa  th<s  ohans©   is  raade  ^-hetjisr  we,    in   taking   that  on, 
are   indulging  in  wild-buying,   or  ars  taking  it  on  because  «s 
used  it. 

Ohainaan  ALLS".     Or  because  you  are  foolish. 

Hr.  DUSICE.     Or  basaus©  ^=3  are  foolioh.     You  have   to  de- 
terraina   it  at   that   tims,   and  yau  osai   than  t-Jli  us    to    take  it 
or  not,    as  you  like,        Tnat   is   ths  way  you  haivs  been  handling 
it  under   the  surplus   clause,-  and  doesn't   it  provide  exactly 
for  what  Mr*   Pattsa   ?srants,   except   that  p^rhups  ho  asay  maan  that 
he   af-ants  a  nevv  raadjustxasnt   of  ctairie)s  up   to  the-  presant   time. 
Ho   says  up  to  Fovombor  30.      If  you  want   a  rsadjustmc-nt  of 
dairies,  let   ths   contractors  notify  you  up   to  January  1st.   That 
gives   thea  a  ch^wcts  to  r<^ndw  their  scale  in  purchasing  for  threi^ 
months,    adding  to  or  tsOcin^  from  shat  they    thinlc  thay  %ill  nasd 
for  th'i  n-^xt    thro«j  laonths.     Thsn,    -if tar  January  Ist   they  will 


;     ti.:- 


*    r-r       J-.'.,      V        ,  f: 


.u.:.     n;.'.v 


i:-.n   &..'.■:■    ijt^-""    ;"'.7 


,-.>f.'-    i. 


:  a .. 


< 


J.23 

notify  you  of  evsry  nasr  daiJTr    tiiay    taka   on,    and  if  you  aa^  ail 
right,   «e  wiii  io  ao,    and  if  not  we  will  not;    th^t  la  all, 

Ootam*  MOBBIS.     There  is  nothing  in  jkr,  Pattae'o  proposi- 
tion  that  is   iik:3ly   to  hurt    the  dieaiers  any,    is   there? 

iir.   CUSIGK.     Well,    it  will  hurt    thsi  deai<3rs  eom&,  Mr, 
Morris.     Thsy   ar^  getting  along  pretty  wail  in  llr^-  York,     If  I 
understood  Mr.  Pattee's  proposition  to   this  Goamiasicn,   taaking 
a  price   in  connection  with  %hioh  ev-ijry  na«v  dairy  bocamee  prac- 
tioallr  a  si^rplus  dairy  daspita   tha  contract  betye&n  the  dealer 
and   ths  dairy,    tb*jr«>  is-ay  be  lots  of  troubls. 

Ooffis,   M0??J3.      I  don't  ge^-    that  point.     You  migiit   gnats 
it   a^^ain* 

ar^   aUSIOli.        Undor  Mr,   Patt^s^'c  theory,   svi-ry  ne'*  dairy 
that  corass  on  will  ha  prasticaiiy  a  surplus  daijr-y» 

'Do.jfflE,  MUKDO'OK.,      ,  Hor  unless  it  r^iOlly  is.     ^ 

Uxt  CUSIOK.     It  can't   ba  otherwise,     ^vary  n-a^^  aairy  is  a 
surplus  ciairy.  -         . 

Goffisj.   MUHDOQi::.     It   can  bs  oheoksd. 

Mr.   GUSIC3K,     It    cannot  ha   chesksd.     livery   dairy  is   so 

identified  tsith  the  curplus  thtxt  it  cannot  bs  stps-JC-JLtedi*   That 

'is  ai'iat   it  would  maan,    and  you  would  navBT  do   it  .^md  Ka  would 

n&ver  do  it,   svsn  if  %'©  ware  ordarsd  to   do   it,   despite  our  con- 

|tract  with  th^t  n«u'  dairy.     We  ?,'o\jid  p3.f  them  »vhat   that  iriilk 

was  ^jsfOrth  for  surplus,      I   don't  thini.  it  is  practical.     ■ 

I  Mr.   S3AKS*      It  seems   to  me    tJiat   thare  ar;  t.-^  rather 

strong  ohjsctions    to  Mr.   Pattes's   proposed   change.      I    askjd  Dr. 

GilDsrt   to  giv$  ma   th«  two  prices  for  October  --   th-j  price  paid 

to    thQ  farasara  less  the  general  surplus  deduction,   which  saiount- 

Isd   to   $4.35,   at  tha  prici;  p.aid  or    taQ  pries  ullowad  for   the 

I 

surplus  ifiilk,   which  is  43,40,-  or,    in  otiinr  words,   a  aiffarence 

of  95  cinta,    or  n^iarly  25^  differyncw   in  prica.      In  othor  words. 


*      Ui- 


'■ti':      "■  '■ 


^■'"'jtfu;;.:;c 


Z '-'»..,    uiisr    ••■■    -^    .;*':>!■  :jO   *!!.<=  i    J^o. 


s 


124 

If  a  daalsr  took  ^n  a  nsw  farmer  x^e  could  only  assure  tiim  a 
pries  of  25^  l3»R  thin  the  dsta)>lished  price ■    and,  of  course,   no 

fartaer  ootdLd  afford,    if    the   figurds  that  hav©  bsan  put  in  her© 

near 
by  ;4r.   Pat  tee  for   the  last  t^:^  monthe  ars  anywhere  >  correct,    to 

continue   in  th«#  miik  ousinsss  and  s^Xl  at   that  prlc^.      Thera- 

ford,    there  would  inevitably  b©,   as  Mr.  O'Hare  has  pointed  out, 

a  dropping  off   in   the   surplus? 

Chairman  AIXS¥«     In  other  worde,    you  could  not  go  out   and 
flsaksj   a  contract  with  a  dairy  and   toll  a  man  that  all  he  v&aa  go- 
ing  to  gtjt  for  his  milk? 

Mr,  3EAH3.   Probably  not, 

Ghairajan  ALLii.H.      So,    ycu  wotildnH    take  on   the  dairy? 

Mr*   2^AW»     Probably  not. 

Soism.   ilUPJX>CJ>.,     J   understand   that  Ur»   Pattt'e   is  basing   tiiie 
upon  tin©  fact  that   there  has  hQ&n  an  exerciad  of  hid  jud^stnt 
by    tiie  d'saiers   ah   thie  ra;i.*-tor. 

Mr.   SEAK3.        I  don*  t  know  whether  that  has  bO'^n  I'oraaily 
put  up  to   the  aoaBBjisaion,  v^hi^thijr  thei's  has  baen  any  objection 

or  not. 

Ooma,  i^UHDOJIv.     But  llr.   Patt«^  is  basing  his  aoticn  hare 
upon  ssparience,  upon  vmfortynata  experience,    tending  in  his 
gjini   to   show  that    the  Cosmission  has  not  sfuifiilxid  its  function 
Very  w«il, 

Mr.    '-^aBS*      i    Should   say  about   that,    that    the   Oomaission 
'^as  dealing  -sitJi  an  axc^tsdingiy  aiff iouit  problsai.      I  iaiow, 
speaking  for   the-  Hood  Oompfiny,   that  soma  of  i t-.j  worst  diffi- 
cuitios  arise  in   tha  administration  of   the  isurpiue  plan*. al- 
though I    triink  it   has  -^orkssd  out  iuit&  as  &-@ll  as,   if  not  batter 
tlian,   thi'y  exp?3Cted.      ^omy  of   the  difflouitisa   that  hive  arisen 
wsre  anticipated,   but  no  d^jalar,   I    thi'Uf,    is  going   ielib.;rately 
to  buy  sore  jaiik   thsin  he  ndeds*     I  ^Ts-ian,    there  is  no  corrsapond- 


'!.:  it-iii-    .- 


^'^-V.   A,j 


^      '  '■  . 


125 
ing  advantage   in  doing  it»     Ke   is   simply  loading  himoeslf   up 
with  ailk  he  dosjs  nor.  need  and  wMcli  he   cannot  turn  ovar  into 
profit,    ana  there   is  no  monwy  in  doing  lt# 

3oiam,   s^W?IS.     And   thara  wo-uid  be  a  question  arise  *hen 
there  was  a  falling  market  on  cheese  and  butter,  for  instance, 
instsad  of  u  rxoin.g  rairket,    ae  far  as    th^s   effect  on   the   i:-ro- 
ducers  was  concerned. 

Mr*  S3A!?S.     Wall,   I  hxi  not  considsrsd   that,   but  I    shO'jld 
think   p-ossxbly   there  ciight  be.      Thero    in  anothar  practical  dis- 
advantage, because  of   sahich  I   cannot  oed  how  you  are  goin^  to 
figurs)  this   thing  out.     You  have   a  fluctuating  body  of  farst^jrs. 
You  st-irt  on  the  30th  of  "loveinbcr  with  a  certain  nuiabtir  of 
farmers.      That   is  your  fixed  point.     During   tha  montli  of  Decsas- 
bcr  a  certain  niiunbor  of  those  farmers   stop,    they  ^.xvb   up,   or 
for  soma  reason  or  other  they  do  not  appear  on   ths    books  of   fJcia 
dealer  the  first  day  of  January,    and  certain  others  take  their 
place.     Then,    certain  of   tliose  taken  on  in  I)ecewber  are  for 
soraj  rsason  dropped  in  January,    und  so  on.        In  oth,:r  words, 
you  have  a  l>ody  of  farsera  that   is  as  ahif tine  as   the  sands  of 
the  sea,    except,   of  course,    that  a  certain  residuum  r'saains. 
The  r?^*sult   is  that  you  are  going  to  have,    I   don't  know  how  raany 
different  prices.       You  have   to  create  different  provisions  for 
t^9  original  class,    those  that  are  in  during  P.eptsmbsr,   for 
those   tftat  coise   in  during  January,   and  so   forth*  There  has 

been  a  great  deal  of  f igurins»    a  great  d--al  of  dirf xcult  figur- 
ing,   in   the  practical  sforkin^  out  of   the  surplus  plan.     This 
is   sirnply  going   to  arike  an  added  trouble.      It  may  be   possible 
to  vi'ork  it  out,   but  it  is   going   to  me -in  in  the    :xvl  perhaps   thrt,-e 
or  four  dif ferant  prices,    and  already    thiQ  Gosiaiseion  hAs  seen 
the  difficulties  which  have  arisen  where    there  h-iva  hean   t.;^o 
prices.      It  has  iiQ^n  a  o&tter  of  coaaoon  knofwisidge   that  und^jr 


■ii  (.;■;■ 


'^-'.m'sS.     •'?  "  'r^Vi'      I      L,  vi'i^ii. 


■  >■:.      .  .K-.-;  ':.  - 


I  - :  '      ^    i-jt  ?  » 7  ■ 


^■^fcilT 


I 


the  existing  surplus  plan,   vmtsra  ^ach  prici*  is  fis^ryd  Tor  each 
deiilsr  according   to   t,hs  amount   or  nis  individual  surplvas,    *rh**r3 
a  d3-2ler  has  a  small  surplus    xna  is  op^irating  in  ths   sama   t<srri- 
tory  with  a  dsalar  with  a  large  surplus,   the  farmers  dealing 
■with  th'3  daai'irr  who  has   thtj  small  aurplus  ge":   a  highsr  prices, 
with   th©  permission  of    the  OoDSffiission.     You  are  going  to  h^-tva 
th-3  sajsii   condition  a,^::"iin,    and   thers  will  ba   ths  dtJiaonds  of   the 
fariusra   taXen  on  latar   to   o^  paid    tWs  S.\iM.  pr ioa. 

Ooam,  jLOTCHIS.      if    tha    i^oisaission  '-itsre   to   continue   in  ax- 
is tenc^,  woiildn*t  a  bett-ir  «ay    ^,o   control   it  b-^i;  Tor    ths   voai- 
ffiission   to   aay,    as  I    tiiinK   it  }i:.i8  th*  poTw^r  to   say,    t,hat    tbare 
should  bcs  no  surplus  during   thr^?  pres'int  month,?     Th'^n  the  d®ai- 
sfrs,    ii'   ti'iey    toolc  on  extra  oustonsrs,  would  rio   30   at    tiiwlr 
Dsiril   all    tha   tiin^. 

ir.  SSAiTS.      Sell,    with  r?*r«jreRce  to   tmt  I  hav«j  the  f«?sil- 
in,5  that   tils*  more  artificial,  barriers   are  cr^^ated  around   tha 
ordinary   operatic^  atxd  devolopment  oX    the--   btBin-ssrs   tha   tiorsa 
it  is,    tiiAt   xt  is   un«iss.      Of   cour^a,    the  x-unda^trntai    thing 
about   this  price  fixing   is    tliat   it   is   artis'icial.      At   the  same 
ti/fl^j   as  auch  latitude  afe   can  possilrly  b*    parr&itted,    it   s-3«*ms 
to  2u«,   should  b<j  allowsfd,    and  wmr-^  ycu  .xrts  going  io   sa-y  th^at 
this  farmer  or  that  fariH'i-r  cannot   b«j   t^aksn  on   1-1    sci^^^ar-s    to  ma 
yow  ar*-  trav^lll?)^g  into  a  rsgion   that   is   aatirely   ua-^xplored 
and  are  not  going   to  Ocj  parf^otly  Cafrtain  as   to  exactly  « her  a 
you  will   com-3  out»        In  othdr  worcts,    you  ar-4  dialing  '«ith 
economls   jusstions   and   trying   to  r-JStraia    Isjnd^jnciaS  thit  as*® 
p:3rf  iCtly  natural   t.^ndenci«s,   and  th^^  outlook  will  ba  very  un- 
certain. 

Oojffia»  ]IOi?l?IS«     It  would  t)&  luite  likely  to  rois-*  a  atoris, 
woxil'ln't   ii,   Tmm  mlXk  producars   tiiroughout  Jl^^w  England  -ffho 
do  not  hiippdn  to  bw   in   thd  80 1? ton  sx-^T]s.%t  at  a  certain   tiui«,    to 


O-ft     t'U.      v.,v 


i^i,  (.4'A^  t 


;,Sr.  -  ■•  ,:..>•;.;;.'■  Jfet.n 


i27 

say  that  they  ahalX  be  Iiffiil;=id  to  surplus  priCi^s  if    th«*y  saek 

Boston 
tha  aaricdt?     Wouldn't   tiiat  cr«ate  luita  a  storm? 

Mr.   SSAHS.     I   don*t  knos  that  I   could  Bp'jak.  on  that  jaattsr 
froai   thii  producars'    point  of  via*. 

Ooffla.  ].iOPr?IS.       What  »ouia  you  say  about  that,  Mr.  Pat  tee? 

Mr.  PATTjSS.     That   is  a  stojra   that  you  are  at    the  very  ctin- 
t^r  of,    to-lay. 

Goffiffi.  5K>B'!?IS.     Uxoept   that    tna  storm  biowe  from  a  different 
dirdetion. 

Mr.  ?ATT:SE.       Lst  la^  say   that  under   ths  present  plan   the 
thing   is  unpopuiAr  with  the  farm-r,    because  hts  sees  ail  aroiind 
him  dairies   taicen  on.     I  say,   *ail  around  hia* ,     It  ie  diffi- 
cult  to  run  do»n  all   th-iiso    things,   but  it  ie  repaatsd  to  aa 
fro®  avary  direction   that  I  go   tiiat  civ-aitjrs  ars  taking  en  new 
dairloB  constantly,   :tnd   the  objsctioa  tiiat   th0  n-jw  dairiee  ara 
siiuply  addsd   to  surpiiis  is  vvhat  I   am  trying   to  ov^ rooms  in  this 
suggestion.       Let  ffi«  say   to  yoii   that  BV^ry  dairy  taiken  on,  or 
that  has  been  taken  on  since   the  first  of  iaat  Hay,  has  ngcss- 
sarily  be<sn  taken  on  at  an  uncertain  and  unnjiasd  pries.      It  ims 
Q^QXi  a  stirplus  dairy*     The  objs^otion  that  you  cannot  naas  a 

price   to  a  now  dairy  applies  no  laore   to   this  proposition 
thJin   to   ali  dairies  under   the  foitaer  proposition,   and  will  con- 
tinue  to  apply  until  all  dairies  are  chargad  with  the  surplus 
that  thay  themselvso   create*        It  seams   to  iatj,    as  I  sugg'^st^jd 
a  Eioxaent  ago,    like  a  man  naking  down  a  load  of  produce   to    the 
ffi^urkst   tb.at   the  daal-^r  does  not  i^ant  and  does  not  nssd.     He  may 
say    to    the  man,    "I   will  get  you  saaat  I    can  for  it   and   rotum 
you  that  much."      I    think  you  itill  find,    if  you  study    this 
carsfully   and  analyu©  it,    th^t  it  will  work  out  autojaaticaily, 
that  it   »ili  not  -if fact   thb  daalars'    mcoai©,   profits  or  business 
in  tliti  Itjist,   but   s-ill  simply  ttsnd   to  locata  tha  loss  through 


i 


:■■.-    t:.i  ^ 'a.. 


>:■  1    <^,>f  c      t 


128 

surplus  on  those  dairies  who   cr^tate   that   surplus. 

3oam,  BIHD.     Who  is   to  dot-drmine  undar  your  plan   the 
dairies  not  necessary  to   the  conduct  of    ths  business? 

Mr.   PATTSS.     Thd  returns  of   tha  dealer  himself  will  shew 
wimt  voluias  of  lailk  is  nticassary,   and  if   ths  dairies  he  has 
produce  a  voIvbhq  of  milk  that  is  raorw   than  n9C0saary,   that 
excess  will  be   charged  back   to    those  dairies   that  h^  has,   but 
before  it   is   charged  back  wo\ild  be    taken  the  milk    that  he 
bou^iht  of  nsw  dairies* 

CoBBQ.  MTODOOy..     How  is   it   to  be  d^terminod  ^hich  n^w 
dairies 8  create  the  surplus? 

Mr.  PATTSB.  I  think  perhaps  this  proposition  doas  not  go 
sufficiently  far»  and  I  have  another  hera,  if  you  please,  that 
I   would  like  to  submit,  lator. 

Chairman  AlIJ^F.     Without  consultation  with  tha  rast  of   the 
Gojtaaissioners,    I    think   laie  is  a  fairly  opporttinis    tiaao   to  state 
that  I   can  personally  foresee  on  April  let  a  pretty  chaotic 
Stat©  of  affairs  unls>ss  Boim  constiructivt^  auggystion  is  put  out 
by  this   voinmi^sion,   and,   as  I  hav€/  been  listening  to   this  dis- 
cussion,  I    think  «e  may  bw  atuzabling  over  a.  v^ry     little    thing, 
whan  I    think  we  should  be  discussing  soiae  larger  questions  that 
are  coming  up  before    this  OosEsisaion.      I  kno'a   th^^  Coiamission 
all  fS9l  tOiat  we  have  spent  a  good  deal  of    tiaiu  on   this  work 
and   that     when  April  1st   comes  ther#  *ill  bo   trouble,   unless 
soma   constructive  work   is  done,    and  we  may  not  isven  be  allowed 
to  go  to  April  1st.     So  I    think  we  shoiild  spend  sioot  of  our  time 
in  discussing  what  can  be  dons   to  help    the  industry  when   tixis 
Commission  stops  sitting.     Therefore,   I  had  hoped  you  would 
say,   "While   ths   surplus  plan  has  some  outs  about  it,    it  has 
been  ^ing  on  for  soiatj    time   and  can  v^rj'  well  run  for   three 
ffionths  xaora,   and  t^s  want   to  spend  most   of  our   time  in  arriving 


c 


'^^■■."y-'^d:. 


-.■■■-     :LXS';i 


-r^-. 


■V^Ji. 


at  something  constructive,      tiaat  will  b©  al'faotive  for   the 
future."        That,    la    the   »»ay  it    appaals    to  n^« 

Mr.   PATTSS.     1st  rai  go  on  record  as   saying  this:    It   is 
exactly   in   that  spirit   that  I   .iak  your  consideration  of    this 
SLfflendmsnt   to    the   surplus  plan.      I   taka   it  that    ths  Ooaffiission 
in  sxeouting   the  surplus  plan  aid  so  with  a  viow    to  creating 
a  btj^Lsr  sjarkst   system  2^or  M-jw  Sngl^^nd,   and,   I    take  it,    if  xa- 
perfactions  or  evan  pogsibiliti*ts  of  abuaa  or  iinperf action  can 
ba  shoftn   to    this  Oomuission,  hare  and  no-^  is    ths?    tiiae   to    try 
to  arriva  at  a  plan  tiiat  will  last  afttjr  the  Ooamission  o^asds 
to  axist. 

ChairniAn  AIISK.      Caji  it    through  any  ^'sacliin.'ry  last   aft<jr 
April  Int? 

Mr,   P.^TTI^].     Hot  in  its  prassnt  foraa,    and  it  is   Alth  a  viaw 
to  remedying  it,   making  it  s^'r^  accaptabla,  without  in  any  way 
obviating  or  ai'focting  the  juetioe,   aiuity  or  eoonoaiss   of   it, 
that  I  aaa  asking  for  thia  adjustaicjnt   ta>   00  written  into  it. 

Ilr,  AMSAGH*      I^ia  firm  I    r^-jprasant  had   about  00^  surplus 
in   ths  flionLh  cI   Juna,    and  r-joently,   with  practically    tiis  aai^ 
nxmXi'ir  of  producdrs,   wo  hav^-  tiad   to  get  silk  outside,    buying 
milk  outsids'   of  our  own  produc^^rs.   We    txioiigxit  a  60^  surplus 
would   carry  ug  through  tiiis   short  xaonths,    -j^d   it  aidn't.      Uniar 
Mr.  Patte2*s  proposition,  ws  v»oulan*t  hav©  enough  milk    to  carry 
U5   through  next  Hovimo^jr.     As  I  understand  it,    the  surplus  pl-an 
is   fjupposad  to   caiTy  a  doal<ir  -ohrougJu.   t-he  ytiar,    m  the  short 
period.     He  is  p;snalizad  if  ha  carries  jsore   than  that,   because 
he  canno':   carry  any   surplus  for  Novcmoer.      It  seems    to   ay    that 
covers   the  point,    and  it.  ss^eas   to  as    ths  *hole    thin^^  is  cov-jr^d 
by   tha  prfcsant  surplus  i>ian.       A  dealer  is  not  going  out   to 
buy  wild,    ■jfhc^n  hd    is   p!5nalis<*d  if  ha   do^js   30.      Tn.-^  noatci   of   the 
Hsw  dairy  is  givaa  to    tiio  Oomiaission,    and  he  can  b^  call^sd  to 


^       V  >  -V         ^  ^'y« 


asiJ-.  -J' 


^ 


i30 

account   if  he  is   buying  wild.      It   seams    to  ma   a  daal-jr  should 
be  abls   to  buy  enough  to  carry  him  through  next  November. If 
he  wao  short  this  ?rovomb©r,    presiiraably,    if   tha  business  doss 
not  decrease,  he  will  ha  short  next  Novemt-er. 

GJomm.  BIH).     j£r.   Pattee,   let  us  s-it  back   to  f undamyntais. 
The   raason  why   the  surplus  plan  <fta8  neoasaary  was  because  the 
tnrmers  of  }?aw  ISngiand  do  not  'xnd  havj   not  produced   thsir  mlk 
according  to   the  rsquirsm'Snta  of   th^?  Boston  jaarkst,   but   accord- 
ing  to   their  own»     Ths   CJomaiiasion  -ftas  oonfront^id  with   the  fact 
that  It  had   to  sat  a  pric-s  with  an  unknosn  surplus  aivaya  hanging 

'  over   itg  hfcad  that  ao.n3body  Vr^d   to   carry,    and  it  ^as  on  t>iat  ac- 
count that    the  Oo3jmission  sat  th»i   surplus   at   a  :joi.nt  mi-jr-j  it 
would  ba  passed  bach   to    tho   point,  •vner^   it  was  crtsatsd.     "atu- 
raliy,   tho  farmars  do  not  like?  it*      It   ia  not  nice   to  have  a 
charge   brxCJi   and   to   find   that  you  are   not  gritting  as  i-tuoh  as  you 
thouf^ht  you  vjsre-      But  it  was  created  by  the   farmers,    and,   while 
it  uiay  ba    true   t.hcit  some  of   tha  dealers  may  hava  over-bought 
some*hsrs,   ysst,    irx  studying  the-  figures,   it  ioiis  no^  noem.  to  me 
that   thsre  has   taan  any  particularly  srild  buying  on   tha   part  of 
the  dealers «      It  ssasis    to  me   that    ths  reai3dy  lias   with    th© 
farmers   th-aassivas,    and  not   tha  Ooaraissioa,    and    that  you   are 
trying  to  apply   th=?  r^w^dy    to    the  dealer  whan  th'3  fault  r>5  3J.ly 
li^s  with  tho  farasr.        If  you  had  produced  trvid:?nco  bt^fors    tins 
CoEjmiesion  tc   show   tiiat  daaisrs  had  bought  wild   ■.iTKl  had  sja- 
torially  ovsr-bought  for   their  requiremwnts,    it   scams   to  ae 
your  argumrjnt   v?ould  h:ivs  mors  w&igfct;  but  I  do  not  s^o   that 
you  hava  produced  avidenca  before   the  OonmlsBion  to  ehcvw  that 
these  dealers  have  botght  wild  or  carried  big  surpluses   in 
certain  asonths    that   thoy  did  not  rc-juire.     If   that  is  true, 
they  had   to  buy  &.  ftiioi?.   lot  laore  milk  dxyrinc    the  months   of 

j  stiTplus  production    ^o   taicr>  C4ire  of  themsolv^js  during   tho  aontjna 


,<)'■:»  ■■  .,,-  V 


x  ■:,:.:*    ■•o 


^■'X.-r^i  I 


.!■£*•  iOa  I'insi^j" 


'  JLi-'J. 


—  r.-r     1 


l.-v.     ."nv     X-J-.i.^ 


;;•    n-- i-iivx-.t,^.>..     •:j.^.;- 


131 
Of  least  production.     Is   that  th©  dealers'   fault  or   ths  farmers' 
fault.? 

Mr.  PATTSS.  I  think,  Mr.  Coraraissioaer,  if  I  understand 
your  proposition  correctly,-  you  have  th-i  retiims  cuid  »©  have 
not,    unfortunateiy,-- 

Oohhh,  BIIRD.      They  ars  all  accessible   to  you,   Mr.   Pattee. 

Ur,   PATTES*     v<3S,    but   thay  are   not  yat  available,    I   under- 
8t.and,   for   tha  raontJi  of  Hovoigbwr.        It    is    true    that   the  di^alers 
caae  before  you  at    the   time  we  proposed  that   no  surplus   charge 
back  be  allowed  for    tlnci  Hjonth  of  Novsaber  with  strenuoiis   ob- 
jection and   stataxnants    tnat    they  would  Buffer  vmder   that   situ- 
ation.    To  a  certain  extent   that  answers  yo-or   juastion.     To  what 
extant   it   answsr«  it  would   be  disclosed  by   tiie  records.      Tiiow, 
then,   I  cannot  aov   that    that  ai'fects    the  principle  involved, 
in   thd  laast.        If   tho  new  dairies   create  a  surplus,    tha  old 
dairies  should  not  be  charged  with  it.      If   tb-^y  do  not  create 
a  surplus  nobody  would  ba   charged  with  it,   -^nd   tha  old  dairies 
would  not  sufi'eir.        It  is  the  adding  of  naw  dairies     during  any 
period  of   the  y^sar,    thareby  creating  a  surplus  at   the  time  whan 
they  are   added,    that   is   objectionable.        ^Sh^n  the   short   season 
coaee,    if   the  production  of  those  n.3W  aairiys   included  is  only 
sufficient  for   ths  market,    t>isre  will  bs  no  sui'plus   to  be 
ehargad  basjs:   to   those   n&^   dairies.        I    think   it  automatically 
adjusts  itself   to  the  proposition;   only  dioring   the  springtiae, 
whsn   th0re   is  a  flush  production,   old  dairies  are  not  obliged 
to  sxiffsr  for  a  fault  that  thay  do  not  craats.     If  latsr   tha 
na«  dairy  is  naedsd   to  makss  up   tht?  supply,    it   automatically 
disappears  xmd^r   this  arrang«ra«nt  for  the  surplus   charge. 

COfflsa.   BIRD.     Your  pramise   is    tiiat   the  dairies  have  suff tir- 
ed.    My  point  is  that,  there  hisis  b^en  no  proof  brought   before 
tho  ComiaiEsion  y^t    to   show   that   they  have   siiff-^rad. 


J    J!.  Al,    w.i. 


f< 


i.      I;.%C      ,ft*^-w 


**r\  >      'V ' 


v;'    °^<M 


Mr.   PATTEE.      Und^sr  suoh  circumstsmcds,    if  thera  is  no  suf- 
fering,   ttere   is  no  application  of    this    thing.      Tha  thing  is 
not  in   the  i«2ast  objc;ctionablQ« 

Oomm.  BIKS.     Then,    it  proves  that    the  surplus  plan  has 
worked  out    reasonably  wsjII,    as  far  as   thi  axjplication  of    the 
surplus    is  concerned,    to   those  who  havo  brought    th«   surplus 
about. 

Consffl.  K0BSI5.      I   thinjc,   iir.   Pat  tee,    that    the   coaiplaint  of 
!  the  fanriers    is  more   imaginary    th^an  real,    in    this  matter.      Of 
course,    wy   can  see  ho«v   the    thing  ftouid  b«i  looiiied  at,    as  far  as 
the  surpliis   plan  is    conc.-rnsjd,    in  a  comraunity  of  fcina^rs.      Thay 
see  one  or  two  farmers  perhaps   taken  on  in   th«i-  neighoorhood 
close  by,    that    txiey  itnov^    about,    and.    tiiey   see   a  surplus  that 
comes  back,    taken  out  of   their  iailk.      They  only  look  at   that 
point,    and   think   that  what   is   going  on  there   is  going  on  all 
over  Na*  England,    and  perrxaps    they  should  not  be  bl^ued  for 
thinking   that.      They   think  a  large  numo^^r  of  producers  are  being 
taken  on  when   they  ought  not   to  be,   vs'hereas   if   they  kn;iw   the 
real  facts   they  would   sea   that    the   ch^inges  were  unimportant, 
so    to  speak. 

Mr,  PATPSB.  Under  my  proposition,  Gommisaioner,  ^^e  woiild 
simply  reassure  thea  against  loss  by  reason  of  the  taking  on  of 
new  dairies.  .-i-. 

Ohairaan  ALL3K.     i}o  you  yourself  see  how  that  could   be 
worked  out,  dr*   Pattee? 

Mr,   PATTSE.     With  ease. 

Ghaijnaan  ALLSS.     Will  you  show   the   OoHimJLssion? 

Mr»   PATTEE.      I    think   so,    if    the  Ooasmission  iwlll  Jcindly 
r^sad  that  clause, 

CJhainaan  ALLEYS.     You  say,  looking  at   this  jsatti-r  in  a 
practical  way,   asfar  as   those  dairies   are  concerned,   that    this 


iH.i:  n-&_  ciiii:.. 


-     ^  ,fj.,t.i:itl?j   tjtS:.  JCu    ■;^  i..,.^it8    ^C^M^.   fiq.-*. 


1S3 
could  be  worked  out  v::?ry   aaelly* 

Ooaan.  }!^UT?BOOK.     Ke   suggested  that  he  had  In  mind   soiae 
further  amendrnt^nt. 

ahiiirman  AILEH*     I  am  speaking  of  this  particular   thing 
that  is  bdfore  us* 

air.  PA7TES.      I    think  it   is  covar'^d  in  tha  sacond  clause 
of   the  proposition.  .  ' 

COHim.  MUliDOOK.     Yas,    but   there   is  difficulty  in  d>3t>iraiining 
which  of   the  new  dairies  are  responsible  for   the  surplus,   if 
any  there  be,   and  you  said  you  had  some  aaiendnisjnt    to  proposa 
to   take   care  of   that,   as  I   understood  you  a  momont  ago. 

Mr.  PATTSS.     That  is  another  story,   which  probably  would 
involve  more  discussion.      If  this  be   the   tin^  and  place  to   sug- 
gest  it,   I  would  suggtist  that   the   surplus  plan  ba  amanded 
fxirther  as  propos'jd  on  this  sh^-st  (handing  sh-^et   to  OonKsission). 
I   sug^ast,  furtii-ir,   "ThJit  the  surplus  plan  be  so  .amendQ4  aa  to 
provide  that    the  surplus  loss  b^  apportioned  among  d^irias   in 
proportion  to   thair  increase  in  production  sinco  Hov^jioabar  30, 
1918. • 

Chairman  ALI2T7.     l!ho   gets   the  pramiua,   undsr   that?     Th3 
fellows  whose   cows   come  fresh  early  in  the  spring? 

Mr.   PATTES.     In  othur  words,    it  is  for  you  gentlemen  to 
fight  for  a  rating  system.         - 

Ohairman  ALLSR.     Is   this   to   tell  the  f  ^rtaer   to  bret3d  hie 

cows  so  that   they  -vili  not  all  ooiss   in  at  one   time   in   the  year? 

I 

I  Mr.  PATfBS.     It   is  shat  you  have  btssn  trying   to  do   and  what 

^e  hav2   b&Bn   trying  to  do,    what  a  gr«at  msmy  farmers  have   been 

trying  to  do.     •     .,-    i     •  \-:. 

Chairman  ALLEH.     It  was  our  hope    that  something  might  be 

done   that  would  help  in  that  matter. 

Mr.   PATTSS.      I  most  decidedly   think  this  would  ht-lp   —   that 


'?■'•?  f»l  ".-■£:«     ;-rvi 


^?rl"f^s  k-fsJ   «a;   X 


Hi^ilJ-^-Jv    -v-^'    -^O.    >!v    :- I     .S.-'yO^' 


'■::'    ot   <i"    ;-VJ  i-^-J-"!^    ri'>^«    irV-;Uj    .;. 


1 


154 

tha   surplus  plan  bo   so  ajnended  as   to   provide   that    the  surplus 
los8  be  apportioned  amori;';  dairies  in  proportion   to   their  in- 
crease ir»  production  since  Movdaib^r  SO,   iyi3» 

Ohalrman  ALIZIU     ^ell,    that  would   in  a  way  work   towards 
giving  a  preaiiim  to  a  man  wiK>  breeds  his   co\^s  ao   as  to   cosa   in 
more  evsnly  through  the  year* 

Mr.  PATTSS.     It  wovild  sKian  that   the  more  a  man   paroducad 
as  a  surplus   the  iarg-jr  loss  he  would  bear, 

Mr.  ClUSIOK.  You  would  find  that  you  would  want  five  ad- 
ministrators.    Therft  is  a  job  for  you,  nilbsrtl 

Mr.  ZlMMSHMAIf.     And  how  about  cr^aiacsriss   using  up   tha  sur- 
plus?    Why   isn*t    this  lik^  coal   and  oth-.-r   ooi^imditists?     il^r& 

XB  a  raarket   short  of  buttsr,    and  you  ars  talking  about  surplxis. 

men 
I  have  ss-en  ,  fighting  in   their  hom^s  for  butter.     You  go  to   the 

store  at   timas  and  you  -zan  only  gat  half  a  pound  of  buttsr,   amd 

a 
hera    the  farnierr,  have  ^v  surplus  >    and  yat   tha  prica  of   buttar  is 

so  high  that  people  cannot  buy   it* 

Ohairrsan  ALLxilT.  I  do  not  feal  that  there  should  bs  too 
much  interruption,  but  that  we  should  stick  right  to  ths  sub- 
ject. 

Mr.  Ziwmmj^,  Thore  are  lots  of  ways  to  g>5t  rid  of  the 
surplus. 

Oh&irman  ALLM,     Show  us., 

Mr.   ZIMISPHA??.     Maka   butter  out  of  i*.     That    is   ons  ^sray   — 
and  chses©. 

Kr.   PATTSS.      3oaje  years  ago    tha  cs-ap   systsm  was  in  aff&ct, 
which  more  or  l^ss  locat;;id   the   surplus   on   the  man  who  mad^j  it. 
I  biJlisve   th®  principle  of   that  plan  «ae  right,   and  I  b'ili«»V6 
that  a  modification  or  ri^iVision  of   tlia.t  plan  can  bs  ciads   that 
will  sork  justice  to  a  greater  degrae  than  is  posaibls  under 
tha  pr^ssent  surplus  plan.       Ths  ona  gniat  objection   to   the 


.•       .  .\f'-i         -4.   /!/:>  : 


■.   --.U. 


135 

surplus  plan  and   tha   one  great  discouragaraent   to   tho  y^ry   tiiing 
you  -are   trying   to   create   and    that   tjr»  m'U-kat  demands,    even 
production,    is   that  undar   the  present  surplus  plan  the  irjan  who 
makes   an  even  production  hati   to  haar  his  part   of    the   surplus 

C   argG-oacK    ^v^^^t    arises   tiurough  som-dbody  that  doas  not  m-iike 

an  avan  production.  Ifovi/,    if    tha  Gojasaission  «ili     at  this  its 

last  sitting  revise  its  plan  so  as   to  provide   that   tha   surplus 
loss  shall  bs  apportioned  am. ng  the   dairies  in  proportion  to 
thoir  increase  in  production  

Coasa*  SAWYSB.       Over  what   tia»? 

Mr.   PATTSS.      I  have   solocted   as  a  date  your  dato,    and  you 
may   change  it   if  you  sae  fit,-  November  30th. 

Mr*   CUSI::K.      Since  IToverab-^r  30? 

Mr.   PATTBS.     Yes,    sinca  Novdisbor  .30.     Now,    I   hciva  bc^dn 
asied  by  this  OomsiisGion  to  suggest  constructive   ileas,    con- 
tinually.     I   asked  before  this  Oomrais  sion  that  a  r^scass   com- 
aittes  be  appointed   to   consider  thens   things.     A  r-j'Cesa   com- 
mittee was  appointed,   and,    to  spsajc  framtly,   it  %a3  not  very 
much  of  a  success   in  considering  thssa   things.      At    that   time 
we  asked  for  inforraation  rsiativa   to  salos,  and   so  forth,   and 
got  a  vary   small  vjay  with  it,        Mo  such  plan,   rapressntative  of 
the  surplus  plan,  will  ba,    in  my  jud^^raent,   sff active,   unless 
it  has  th5  force   of  the  Coiamission  behind  it,    the  strength  of 
the   OomaJission.     Otherwise  I  doubt  if  you  could  aver  reconcile 
the  parties.     But  we  do  ask  that  you  yourselves  rovist>    th^   sur- 
plus plan,   as  sxiggested  hare,    so   as  to  provide   that   the   surplus 
loss  bsj  apportioned  amon^  dairies  in  proportion  to   th;;ir  in- 
crease  in  production  since  ??oveaabor  30,   1918. 

Ohiin-nan  AILSH.     Jrom  the  looks  of  our  friends  on   the  op- 
posite side,  providing  it  v.ould  be   satisfactory  from  a  book- 
keapins  standpoint,   I  8up:joso  they  would  approve  of  iti 


136 

Mr.  PATTSE.     I  prssvoae    they  will  approve  of  it. 

Mr.  CUSIOK.       Your  map  plans  ar©  abeolutely  inconsistcjnt 
with  any  such  surplus  plan. 

Ohainnan  ALLSN.     You  a^res  to  it  or  not? 

Mr.  SUSIC!K.       Don't  you  know  that   it  cannot  bs  mu'ls  prac- 
tic-U? 

Ghairman  ALLEl^.        I    thought  you  all  looked  as  throu^  you 
favorad  iti 

Mr.  0U3I0K.     We  ware  looking  at  your  faciend,    tha  Adsinie- 
tratorl      I  am  v<3ry  gl:i'l,   howevar,    that  at    this  lata  day  he   cosiiiB 
in  and  talks  no^sf  about  aap  plans. 

Ghainaan  ALL7Ji,     You  don't  ^ant  to  discuss   that   too  siuch, 
I  hops? 

Mr.  OmiOK*       TiO,   but  I   was  simply  drawing    ta    tm  atten- 
tion of   thd  -"JomRjission   th-.^  facts  in  connection  with  this   things 
a«  regards  the  reap  plan  and   thissu^gestion.   Before  any  surplus 
plan  %as  adopted  this  map  pl;an  wag  submitted   to    fjxa  Coarsission. 
It  was  turned  down  and  you  took   the  surplus  plan.     It  is  abso- 
lutely inconaistsnt  isith  th©  principle  of  a  surplus  plan,    :4nd 
you  5iu£t  know  it.     So  this   isn*t  any  sus-rKimsnt  of  a  stirplus 
plan. 

Chairman  AXJJiS.     Is  thsit  your  anavrsr? 

Mr.  OUSICSC.       Ytis,   sir. 

aoam.   0*HAH3.        What  inC'sntive  would  thera  be  for  the  pub- 
lic  to   consiaaa  mors  milk  if    that  plan  waa   in  ssffGCt? 

Mr*   PATTBS.      (Apparently  miaundifrstanding   luestion.)  ^vexy 
encouragarasnt  hs  now  has,-  his  profit  on  his   sales,   which  ig 
all   the   ancouragomsnt  he  has  avcjr  had. 

Coiaffi.   O'HAHS.      In  certain  months  of    the  year  he    could    take 
on  n^'si  dairies  that  ha  wished,    to  build  up  hie  business,   with- 
out  ro8triction? 


•  '■} 


137 

Mr.  PATfEE.  You  r«f»r  to  tJa&   first  sug^sation? 

Oomm,   0*HAK2,   Yes* 

Mr.  PATTiSE.     Tiiatra   is   no  restriction  on  his   taking  on  new 
dairies  ^liatever,   but  it  doss  provide  tiiat  if  a  surplus   arisaa 
tJarough  taking  tiisa  on   tiiat  surplus  siiall  'd&  charged   to   thaa 
and  not  to    th<i  other  dairies* 

GoaBs.   0*HA"SE.     You   think  a  daal^r  sill   take  that  chaaaca? 

Mr.  PATTSS.       Weil,   if   tho^y  nes^ded   the  milk  I   should  ex- 
pact    that   they  uould   takw  that  ch.^no3.      I  don't  sse  that   thay 
takss   any  chance,   Sir.   Ooisaissioner.     Thsy  aire  absolutely  pro- 
tected against  loss  in  hiindiing  surplus.     Thay  are  givan  by 
you  a  profit  for  handling   the  whole  milk.     Thsy   can   tak&  on 
all  iSr-.Tn  England,   a.6  it  is  no%-,  and  spread  tha  loss  on  the  farm- 
ers,  **h@ther  they  were  necessary   to   th«  'ousin^^ss  of   thiS   dealer 
or  not,  :ind  undsr  your  system  of  price  making  you  furnish  a 
price,  pr«»8tas£i"oly  cost  plus  a  profit   to   thi  d-jaisr,  and  protect 
him  against  loss  in  handling  the  s-orplius. 

Coisa.   C*HARE.      You  have  h^ard   ths   statsia^nt  just  ir.ade  by 
ths  auditor  of  one   of   tl-ie   coapaniess,    that   at  a  cart-iiin  puriod 
of   the  year  thay  didn't  gat  enough  isilk  to  supply   thuir  custom- 
ers.    MQf»,    if  h^  h"i3    to   take  on  n^«  dairies    to  £st   enough  milk 
to   supply  his   customers,   would  th'iirsj   ba  stny   tendb-ncy   to   do    that? 
If  you  wera   in  business,  what  %ouid  you  do? 

Mr.   PATTSii.     Lit  as-  .ans-«er  that  hy    the  uxperience  of    that 
very  concern  to  which  you  allude.     It     lost,  actually  lost 
producers  last  year,   and    tha  record  shows   that   it  has  less 
dairies  at   tVie  end  of   the  period  of  wtiich  it  has  a  record   than 
it  had  at  the   beginning.      I   say   -.o  you   that  b<syond  a  doubt  some 
part  of   that  loss  of    i<iirias   is   due    to  thts  f  ict    that  dairios 
go  out  of  business  rather  than  suffer  a  surplus  loss   that   thay 
do  not   theaseivQs  crtsate.        Und&r  the  proposed  plan   thara  would 


138 
be  jaor®  incentive   to  those  now  in  to  stay  in  and  tmtm  woiad  be 
no  diaeouragsment  of  those  not  now  in   to   continua   in  tiiair 
pregs-nt  line  of  t)t!Bin9S8. 

OosEs,  0'HA3?S.      If   there  is    the   discouragement  which  has 
bean  intimated,  y^hy  are  you  af^raid  of  nciw  dairies  coming  in? 

}lr»   PATT5;i;«     Because  of  further  discouragsm-ants.  You  add 
to   the  fiurpiuB  which  is  to  be   charged  back   to  th^  producers 
already  taken  on  by  giving  tiiese   dealers  pi^rraieaion  to  buy 
frmi  othar  dairies  and   tiirow   the  surplus  back  onto    thaia,   and 
that  vBill  maon  further  discouragements. 

Cosm.   0*HAHE.     Vou  are  afraid  of  dairies  coming  in? 

Mr.  PAT1SS*  Kot  at  ail.  But  &&  would  like  t©  p^rot^^ct  th© 
dairies  already  in  and  woitld  like  to  encouraga  those  in  to  stay 
iit* 

Oomm,  MUBBOOK.      It   is  your  contention   tiiat    the  present 
ehsck  on  indiseriminata  buying  on  the  part  of  tha   dealers,   im- 
posed by  the   Doaimiaaion,    is   in^aff active?  ' 

Ur»   PATTSI*.     Inadequate  etna  xnaff active. 

Chairman  ALUiN.     Have  you  brought   before    the  Commission  at 
any   t.iaa  proofs  of   tnat,   Mr.  Pattes?       Isn't   t,>ivr9  a  burden  on 
your  part   to  bring  proofs   that   that  is  not  working  -as  it  should? 

Mr.  PATT13S.      I  would  like   to  call  ths  Chairman's  attention 
to  tha  figures  for   the  month  of  May  with  rti»lation   'o  onu   com- 
pany.    You  ask  for  f5p<jcific  instances. 

Chairman  AIL:^T.     You  havw   not   brought   before    the  Coiaraission 
up   to   this  time   any  general  complaint  that   it  was  working  out 
unfairly   to   the  farmefre,  have  you? 

Mr.   PATTSS.      i^o,    I   h-ava  not   brought    to   the  Commission  any 
racoiaresndation  up   to  now. 

Chairman  ALLAH.  Then,  this  is  simply  a.  recommendation  for 
the  future? 


-t.i'i^'   .nvj'". 


;i . :  ■ 


:  n    .  ■ 


T.'  ••  i  ,K  '>f:  j^'' 


139 

Mr.   PATfEE,     Based  on   tho  axperienso  of    the  past. 

Chairman  ALLSN.       Oan  you  stats   in  a  fsw  words  wnat    that 
expi3rienc«  is   that  brings  you   to   this   suggestion? 

Mr.  PATTES.      I  would  call  your  attention   to   the  profit 
and  loss   sheets  of  ona  of   tha  parties    to   this  agraaaent  for   the 
BK>nth  of  May.      I   don't  know  whether  you  natit  me  to  -juote   it 
publicly  or  not.      I  would  call  your  attention  to   the  fact   that 
during  the  moiUh  of  May   the     charge-back  of  surplus  loso  to 
the  producers  furnishing  xailk   to   that   concarn  was   |70,380. 
That   io,    thay  received  that  much  legs  for  their  lailk   than   they 
would  havy  rocaiv^d  had    ths  who  la  nilk   been    takan  at    the  whole 
siilk  pries.       At   the  same   tiaaa,    the  profit  and  loss  sheets  filed 
with  you  by   that  company  showed  a  net  profit  to   that  company  of 
#64,638.48  for   the  month  of  liay.     During   that  monfJa  that  one 
concern  took  on  162  dairiss   and  dropp.^d  30.      In  other  y^ordB, 
taking  on  150  aairias   contributed   to   a  lose,   a.  charso-faack  on 
st^rplus,   of  |70,000  odd,   while   tha   concam  ¥^as  making  #64,000 
odd  profit. 

OoiDffi*  MCSRIS.     You  have   luoted  certain  figuras  thar-s  for 
May? 

ar.   PATTSS.     Yos. 

Coffiia.   MCRPIS.      I   suppose  you  also  ou^ht   to  publicly   state 
that   tiis  3ogBnission*s  duty  was      to  try  at  that  txaw   to  over- 
reimburse  tha  d-jalsrs  for  losses  which  tlisy  had  sustained  prior 
to  and  iujsj^dlately  following  January  Ist,   1918? 

Mr.   PATI^E.      Yas,    sir. 

OoiBBi.   IIOKBIB*        And   that    fhs  spring  months  ■sera    tria  atonths 
in  yrhich  thw  rscoup/uent  was  attsEptad   to  be  made,   both  to    th« 
farmers  and  to   the  dealers.     So  it  is  hardly  fair,    is   it,    to 
single  out  one  month  ani  publicly  state  that   there  was  a  nat 
profit  of  so  much  during   that  month,  vhen  perhaps   tiiat  particu- 


■":    k:^Ji    '^'■iitJ'    f*' 


,.  V  '■  •{\        1-    ft,    {'■-.  .    ■  *< 


140 

lar  concQ3m  did  not  ahow  any  profits  from  January  1st,  but,  as 
you  jcnow,  many  other  d^ialers  did  show  a  very  large  loss  during 
thd  months  of  January,  J'sbruary  and  March,  ovar  |6,000  a  month, 
aoaa  of  them.  Th«i  Ooiamission  has  the  duty  of  trying  to  regu- 
late those  pricya  so  as  to  give  every &o<ly  a  chanc©  to  maka  up 
what  has  ba^n  lont,    to  equalize  things. 

Mr.   PATTSS.     I  understand  that  it   ie   the  duty  of  tha 
OoismiBsion  to  award  such  prices  to   the  dealer©  as  will  permit 
thorn  to  maka  a  reasonable  profit,   but  I  anticipate   that  it  is 
also   the  duty  of   tha  Coaifflisgion  to  reiuire  on  the  part  of   th« 
dealers   a  de^^rea  of  efficiency   that  ordinary  businsiss  would 
require  in  ord«r  to  make  a  profit.       ¥0%,    then,    v*e  ar«j  required 
under   t}i&  rulings  of  your  Commission  to  furnish  a  quantity  of 
aiilk  per  cow  beyond,  far  beyond,    th<e  capacity  of    tha  covsrs  on 
which  th3  Gity  of  Boston  depends  for  its  supply.     We  havt3  nsvar 
complained  publicly, or  privately,   for    that  matter,   against   the 
ruling  of   the  Ooazaission  that  prices  shoiiid   be   based  on  a  5000 
pounds  production.     But  if  all   the    cows  of  less  than  that  pro- 
duction wsre  eliroinatsd  from  tM  supply,  Boston  would  go  mighty 
hungry  for  milk.     We   accept  that  as  a  standard  of  efficiency 
on  *rhich  prices  should  ha  based.       Mow,   I  do  not  b^ievt*  it  is 
a  l&gitiaiate   argxim-int  for  the   3oaroission   to  maintain  that  they 
should  establish  prices  so  high  that  m  efficient  dsalsr  aay 
aisJce  a  statement   that  inay  not  bs  publicly  disclosod  in  ord^r 
th-it  soms  othar  duoler  may  rseoup  hiaself  for  losses. 

aoxm,  M0HT?I3.      *ali,   during  the  month  of  Janu^iry  th,^   saa» 
daal-'r  that  you  are  rafarring   to  shows  a  profit  of  v^ry  litti® 
over  $1,000,    as  I  rismtjsib-ir  it. 
'^.    PATTSB.        |1,&00. 

OoBja.  MOBBIS.     Something  iiks  |i,r>00,   which  would  b-a   con- 
Bider&d  a  v^ry  small  perc^intag^?  of  profit,   of  course.     You 


i  :«. 


141 
wouldnH  think  it  good  judgment  on   tha   part  of   the  OoiEsxssion 
to  drive  out  of  buainass  various  dealers  and  thro*  the  'akole 
business  into   the  hanis  of  one  or  two  daaiere   in   thr  city, 
would  you? 

Mr.   PATTED.     Well,   I   do  not  baliave   it  is  of  any  partictilar 
advantasQ  to    ths  market  in  Boston  or  to   the  farmer  a  thssjssives 
either  for   the  consumer  to  be  obli^ad  to  pay  or  the  producer 
to  bd   obliged  to  accept  xaon^y  so  big  on   th^  ona  hand  or  30  lit- 
tle on  the  other  that  an  inefficient  dealer  can  stay  in  busi- 
ness. 

OomcB»  SAWY^.     But  yat  you  want  to  protect   the  inefficient 
farmer? 

Mr.  PATTSE.      I   didn't    say  tiiat. 

Ooaaa.   SAWV¥R.      That   is  your  inference. 

Mr.   PATTSE.      I   say   that  we  have   accepted   tha   5000  pound 
Standard  us   tha  standard  at   liie  present  tiiae  on  sshich   to   base 
prices. 

Mr.  0UBXO&.,     As  rspr.isenting   the   dealers,   I   ^^ant    to   aak 
ilr.  Pat  tee  who®  he   colls  an  inefficient  as  ale  r? 

Ohairjaan  ALLE¥.     I   don*t  think  it  is  necessary   to  go   into 
that  luestion.  ;''      ■' 

Mr.   OUSIOK.        But  I    think  wa  have  a  right   in   this  hearing, 
when  he  sakss  a  ctatement  of   that  kind,    to  know  to  whom  he 
refers  as  an  inefficient  dealer.  ; 

Ohairaan  ALLSH.     I   think  thare  is  no  na^d  of  going  further 
into   that. 

Air.   wUniOK.     Well,   I  knovr  what  he  means  si.nd  »ho  hs  sx^jans. 
I    think  that   sort  of  stuff  has  gone  on  far  enough. 

Mr.  PATTSS.     I  will  sulxsit  isy  rights   to   ths    :;oai2ai3sion. 

Oornm.  BI?J).     Did  Mr.  Pattse  answer   the  last   lusstion  asked 
by  the  Oosjrcission? 


o^  ■.Hm:£  oi    it::ii  ■'' 


':^*:r  ^^  hit  cm-i)^:.. 


S:  !:■: 


142 


i42 

Mr.  PAT7£S»      I   called  your  attention  to  the  loss   suffered 

in  one  niont.hi,    in   tha  way  I   h:iV3  rsferrad   to,  v*hila    tiis  dtioiar 
was  protected  against  loss,    and   called  ittantion  to   thu  fact 
that  132  dairies  ^or&  add9d   by  thai:  d<ialer  in  tizat  aontli.     I 
ws«  asked  in  regard  to  sps)cific  instancas.       I   said  that  I 
did  not  submit    these  figurae  except  at    %hs   invitation  of  the 
Ooaimissionsrs,    -and  hesitated  about  going  furthtT  into    the  mat- 
ter,  Linl-iss   it  was  disirsd  by  the  Commission  that  i   should  do   so 

Coniffi,   BI"8I).      I   undarstand  ona   of  your  principal  objiictions 
to   the  8v<rplus  plan  is   that  farmers  maitlr^  a  uniforis  production 
throtighout   the  year  are  penalised  under   the   surplus  plan.      I 
agree  ^ifch  you  that   that  is  pernicious,    and    the  C/Oianiission  have 
asked  you  to  make  suggestions  as   to    that,    ao  a  matter  of  pro- 
tection.     It  does  not  seem  to  me  as  if   the  plan  you  have  sug- 
gested was  going   to  do   the    thing  you  contemplate  or  want   to  have 
done.       I  have  a  suggestion  hero,   which  i^erxiapa  may  be   '-orn  to 
pieces,   but   it  might  offer  a  solution.     Suppose  the  dealers 
vent  over  the  list  of  dairies  and  picked  out   the  dairies  that 
had  ®ade  a  unif 02*a  production  throughout   tfie  year,   worKing  under 
this  surplus  plan.       We  have  gone  along  on  it  for  practically  a 
year,   so    that   I    think   the  figures  would  be  avaii.-ioi©.     ^y 
percentage  quoted  here  may  not  be   right,  but  suppose   that  any 
dairy  arhose  production  does  not  vary  aare   than  10^  from  the 
fflinimi-aa  month  shall  be  classified  as  a  Class  A  dairy,   and  shall 
be  relieved  froia  all  oharge-baoks  of  surplus,    unaar    tiiit   surplvis 
plan,   and  shall  receive   the  full  price  Ssrt  by   the  Commission 
from  the  dealer,    Mid   the  surplus  auilk  shall  ou-   apportioned  over 
all  other  preducera.     iJo^s   that  cover  your  point  of  protecting 
the  nan  who  laakes  uniforsu  production? 

Ur,  Pi^TSS-      I   see    this  objection,   ^r.   Bird,    1.0    th-^t  pl,Mi 
phrased  in  that  *ay,    that  those  who  have  made  a  uniforiu  pro- 


A  ix'^i'.  ■.;^ 


in  ^ 
duction  fflight  be  ,s\iff  xcient    lo  proviisa   ths  daalsr  ^ith  his 

whols  supply  of  nalk*     Tour  surplus   eltuation  is  not  r^madxtid 

by  even  production.     Svsn  production  '.^ould  siaaply  distribute 

the   surplus  evenly  betwasn  the  sonthe. 

CoflMQ»  BI'RD.      It  would  not  be  nEjcesoa-ry   to   taks  on  an  amount 
of  2illk   that   is  not   r*;quirs!i  in  cortain  months    to   pro'ridi   for 
othtir  montha  when  railk  was  not   available*    if    there   was   J.n  evan 
supply.       A  aealer  would  ba   -^bl^   to  contract  for   the  amount  of 
milic  he   wantsd  from  aionth    to   -nonth.      If  h-j    bought   too  auch, 
that   isfould  be  his  hunt.      Toa:i.y,    he   dv'.s  not  icnow  what  he    is 
getting.     ThB.t   is  not   the  dealer's  f^iult,   but   th:;   produo3r*a 
fault. 

Mr,   PATTSS.        Yes. 

OOBaa.   BIBI).     Your   sugneation  was   that   tnis   surplus  piim 
was  penalizing  tn*  m:m  who  aade  tha  sv-^n  production.      All  right. 
If  ths3  dsolsr  knova  h3  can  gat  from  a  producer  month  in  and 
aaonth  out  so  mush  lailk,    in  tiiat  case  th©   producer  is  protected, 
tha  diialar  is   prot-^ct^d,   and   tixsj  surplus   is   thrown  on   thosa 
»ho  miika   it,   as   it  ia  your  oontention   that  it  should  bs. 

ar,  PATTSS.     I  invite  your   attention   to  p  iga  2,  -^hieh  I 
filad,    "That    *Ja3    surplus  pi  aw  b^   so   gLasnded  aa    to   pi-ovids    that 
the  siiTplus  loss  bs  apportionod  aaong  dairies   in  proportion  to 
thi'ir  incr^aae   in  production  sinca  Kovambar  SO,  1913.* 

Ooaaai.   BIR^.      fhat  does   not   sovsr  your  point,    aoss   it? 

Mr.   PATTSE.      Th«   aan  who  iaaa«   tha    incrsas-;   in  production 
lindar   that  auggastion  wouia  not  suffer  und^jr   the   surplus 
'chargs-back. 

Oosiu.   BIBD.     But   that  does  not  cover  yoiir  ovm  objection. 
JTha  man  who  mjk<in  up  hie  production  in  surplus  irionths  has  not 
hijlptjd    the   thxritj,    at  all.      Th9  man  who  mak»s  an  avcn  prouuotion 
throughout    ths?  year  ie   ri^ally   accomplishing   eoiofc thing   to  help 


■■;;-":i:V;    f- v<?Cf 


144 
the  situation. 

Mr,  PATT3S.  Ybb, 

GonjGi,  BZSB.        By  aa^/ing  to  a  laan,   '' increaa&  production", 
and  then  having  him  gat    ihe  hnXk  of    th^s  production  in  May,    June 
and   July,   you  have  not  h'ilptsd  the  thing  at  a2J,» 

Mr,   PATTES.     But  I  hivo  dat^d   this  >J0V5iab-,^r  SO.     Of   course, 
I  vOTold  be  willing   to  sui»ait   to  any  sslsctlon  of  date   which   tm 
«i3doai  of  the  OowmXaBion  sii.ght  dictate,  but    thlc  fixtas  a  period 
designed  to  b^    tha  last  day  of   the   no  aiirplus  month®,    as  ea- 
tablishad.  so  f cir  oy  you. 

Oonsa.  BIM).       Yes,   but  ho&  have  you  helped   thd  man  ?/ho 
raakos   the  0v^3n  prodxiction,   undar  tjiat? 

Mr,  COOK.     There  ienH  any  auch  man. 

Ooasa.  SAWYEB.     We  hav^  evidsace  that   fimr^i  are  a  fy^/, 

Mr,   PATTiiii,      If  I  might  ha  givs^m  »i  chajrice    to   ^nz-f/er   th© 
Oomsaisaioner's  lueetion 

Ootism,  BIPD.  I  say,  hot*  does  this  plan  of  yoisrs  covering 
incr^^ased  produe t ion  ht^lp  tJie  tioan  who  mcikss  an  oven  production? 

Hr.  PAT-I^.     That  it  b^  distributed  in  proportion   to  the 
increase,    and  if  -^h'^re  was  nt>  inorease  in  his?   caq<s  ha  -^-ould  g8t 
no  proportion  of  ths   siarplus  charge.  .     ' 

Oosfia*  BIBD.  But  that  doss  not  halp  tte  aan  who  aoicus  an 
©van  production  tliroughout  the  year,  specif iciily,  as  against 
the   m.in  who  raakes  an  xm&v&n  production* 

Mr*   PATTSE.     Then,   yoiir  jxdnd  and  rain^--    jxs   in   accord, 

CosEi.  BIRD.  Thay  ars  not»  baoaus-s  I  don't  know  v.-hat  you 
ara   trying  to  get  at, 

Mr.  PATTSE.     You  and  I   ars   trying  to  ^^at  at    th?s  saiae  tiling, 
and  Esy  proposition  is  that  you  write  such  a   thing  as  I   hava 
I  8ug£;asted  into  the  eurplu©  plan,    that  he  who  nijJcee   tlie   surplvis 
ehali  bsar  it. 


»«'. 


0.4  D 


4L-45 
Oonua,   BIBD*     That   is  what   I  havts   suggested  doing,    raiiev- 

ing   the  man  who  do*s  not  make  it,   Qntiraly,   1   think  I   aa  en- 
tirely in  accord  with  your  Ideas. 

Mr.    PATTSS.     Are   in  accord  with  ay  ideas,   may   b-j,   but  may 
not  bQ   in  accord  with  ajy  langu^ige. 

Gomm.  SI'S!).     Do  you   ♦^hink   the  language  as  sugsestsd  hsire 
covers  that  point,    that   thaaian  who  m^kas  the  ijven  production 
througJriout   the  year  is  relieved  of  all  surplus   charges,    to 
start  with?     That   I3   the  fundaiasntal   tha,t  you  ire   contending 
for,    isn't   it? 

Mr,   PATTSS.     I   think  noh,  ar.  Onainsan, 

Soinra,  MOI?BIS.   You  have  got   to  experiments,   a  year  to   find 
out* 

Mr.   PATTiffi.      No. 

Mr.  OOOK.     Would  ba  worsa  off  in  that   case,   with  January 
and  July   oonsttmption.      .  ^         . 

Oomm.  J^UHDOCJK.      What  :£r.   Bird  is   driving  at   is   this,    that 
such  a  plan  ao  ha  suggests,  having  avssn  production,   >*ould  re- 
sult  in  having  no  surplus.       He  wants  a  schema   tiy  ahich  men 
will  bo  encouraged   to  m^ke  even  production,    and  if   the;  pro- 
duction is  svan  thsi-^  will  be  no   charge -back  to   a  msji  on  sur- 
plus. 

Mr.   PATTSE.       Yes. 

Ooaun.  MUBDOOh.      It  may   be   a  littles    too   iidaaiistic   at    this 
tinaj . 

Hr.   PATT3E.     Well,   it  puts   tha  penalty  of  craating  the 
surplus  on   the  man  who  creates  it,   tha;^  ie   the  purposa  v^hich 
ws  ss^k. 

Oonim.    SAWYEB.     You  did  not  say  that,    before, 

Oossas.  MUHDOGK.     Why  do>sn*t  Ur.   Bird's  x-ropositinn  do    that? 

Mr.   PATTSS.      If   it  do&s,    wall   md  good;    v»o  will  accapt  it. 


o. 


..■^^-iJii     O 


146 

OonHR-.  BIBB.     Is  there  any  objection  on  the  pzirt  of  th© 
dealers   to   that  clause?     What  do  you  hav.5  to  say,   Mr.Gusick? 

Mr.   OUSIOK.     All  I   can  oay  is,   as  Mr,   Whiting  has  just 
suggested,   that  perhaps  if  you  have  a  recess   committee  on    this 
thing  your  committee  might  be  able   to   thresh  it  out.     But  it  is 
a  pretty  broad  lusstion  to  consider  offhand. 

Ooam.   srPD.     Tou  hava  no  objection   to  putting  the  surplus 
on   tna  mm  who  creates   it? 

Hr.   OUSIOK.      Absolutely  nona,    if   you  can  do   it, 

Ooiam.  BIBD.     And  there  would  be  no  objection    to  classify- 
ing the  dairies   according   to   thoss  aaking  even  production 
throughout   th-^  year? 

Mr.  OUSICK.        Well,    if  I   undu'rgtand  your  proposition,   it 
would  si-cjan  asparating  the  men  ~«ho  maJse   the  evsn  pi-oduction  from 
the   otiaars.      That  would  a-ian  practically  each  month? 

Coaffi,   BIRD,     ^or    the  year. 

Jar.  OUSIGK.  Wall,  starting  thv  first  month,  you  hav© 
your  production,  and  gjt  your  figures,  and  go  on.  But  the 
producer  has  not  yet  astabiishad  an  aven  production. 

Ooasa.  BIT?!).     Well,    ,£0  back  ovor  your  past  y:;ar  and  t^k© 
the  dairies  which  hava  not  V;iried  loX  aaid  pay  thes  the-  full 
;  price  right  along, 

Mr.   CUSIOK.     And   thon  tc&s  all  the   surplus   and  charge   it 
off  ajsong  tJia  other  fellows? 

Comsi,    SIHD.        v-$s. 

Mr.    aUSICK.      Certainly,    thare   is  no   objection   to    that. 

Gormn.   SA^YEB.     How  many  of    those   would  you  have,    at  first? 

Mr.  WHITING.        jfiftean  p-:ir   c-ant. 

Mr.   OUSICK.     J?o,   you  won*t  have  15/,-  not  5/. 

Consa.  BIM).     I  am  not    talking  about  percantaga,   but  about 
t>he  principle  of   tm  thing. 


.  ;  >  X  'S^'  ■' 


3\lQi'W 


147 
Sir.  CUSLOK.     The  principle   is   the  onxy  scientific  principle 
to  buy  milk  on. 

Ooaaa.  BIBD.     Then,   you  accept  it? 

Mr.  CUSIcac.     Accept   the  principle,    sure. 

CoflBu   BISD.      working  the  thing  out  might  be  a  subject  for 
discussion,    but    the  principle  is  ace 3p ted. 

Sir.  OUSIOK.     The  principle  of   the  surplus  going  onto  the 
fallow  who  ffiakss  the  surplus. 

Coaan.   BIIJ),     You  accept  it,    then? 

^Jr.    ^'^5IC!K.      Sura. 

Coram.   BII^JD.     How  about  you,   ilr.   Saars? 

Hr«   SSARS.     My  clients  say   that  is  similar  to   the  aap 

plan.     Tha  map  plan  theoretically  was  a  vory  fine  one,   but  ths 

practical  frorking  out  of   the  map  plan  resulted  xn  the  ^npr^ca- 

d'snttid  aili  strike   of  1910.      Co    they  faei   that,    although  sshames 

of  that  kmci  ^y  bfe   capable  of  succassful  practical  woricins  out, 

they  feouia  not  want   to  coiaajit  thsasuivss   in  any  way  an  advance, 

bacauaa  it  raisas  the-   'ludstxon  about   two  prisas.  whether  you 

can  hu,v-   two  prices  without  having;  troiible.     That  ia  rsry 

serious  as  a  practical  luestion  *  ^    «-         „  ^      t-.*^-« 

*  *    —  two  i.-ric-ic   at    tine   sx-ne   station.. 

Ooam.   BIIiD.     But  you  acc-ipx,   th©  principle    that    tiia   surplus 
should  b^  piacad  on  thosa  who  producij  it? 

Mr*  SJ3AHS.     If  it   can  ba  practically  worked  out,   yas. 

Zomi,   SI3D.     Then,  you  do   acoopt  ths  principle   ot   it? 

Hr,  3MSS*     ?ha  principle  of  it  is   sound. 

ar.  COSIOK.        Sure. 

Coiaa.  LiUBBOCi:.     ^e  -all  agr^e  on  a  juat  paacaJ 

Ur,  BPO'iSTH.      Just  what  do  you  a^an  by  "evan  production'? 
3o3En.  3I1C     Production   ^iiat  do^s  not   vary  beyond  a  car- 
tain  parc^ntas-a  in    ta«  a^^iaiua  and  lainixaum  months. 


45  ^s  ju^<a 


c ..'.:.  A  o  ■"-;.* '^ 


:,  iJ.'fi>'OS    B'i. 


:>;..  r^iit.r/VT    n^, 


143 
CoiJHa,   SAVSYSTl.      I   would  liice   to   aslc  Jr.   Cusick  a  luestton, 

for  inforraation.     Waan't   tii«j  trouble  witli  tha  laap  pla«  tiiat  it 

was  an  agre&m&nt  between  the  daalera  and  producers  and  that 

there  was  supposed  to  be  no  third  party,   unbiased,    to   control 

it,   no   arbitration  coaaaittas   to  handle  it? 

Mr.  OOSIOK.     I   don't    think  that  was  it,    froia  raj  mamory 
of  it.     I   think  that  plan  was  suggostsd  by  soffls  fara^r  vary 
much  intoreeted  in  this  even  production  proposition.     Ut  was 
workad  out  between   the  farmers  and  dealers.     It  was  not  my 
knowledge  —  and  I  knew  something   about    the-   strike   of  1910  — 
that    the  map  plan  had  anything  to  do  »ith  that.     I  know   the 
reason  why  t>ie  laap  plan  was  stopped  by  soma  of  our  companies 
was  because   the  United  States  Government  said  it  was  a  vsry 
significant  piece  of  evidenc-i;   that  we  had  ccanbined   to  axoku 
prices.     It  was  ths  principal  pi«c©  of  avidencs   they  had   in  ths 
indictment  brought  against   us   in   tha  United  Stat-ss  Ootirt. 
Tharsfors,    the    thins  was  stopped, 

Oomm.   SAWYEB*      It  wag  no  fault   of   the  map  plan  itself? 

Mr.  GUSIOK*      Ho. 

Mr,   SSABS*  Mr.  Hood  says  that  there  »#as  great  difficulty 
with  the  practical  oparation  of  the  map  plan,  in  that  it  made 
two  prices  at  t'rm   ssubq  station. 

Oonea.  SAWTSB*  Ho  provision  for  arbitrating  niatters,  was 
there,  either? 

Mr.  GUSIOF:.  I  don't  think  thsr©  was.   It  made  a  diff^ii-snt 
price  to  every  dealer.  Tho   dciiler,  if  he   ko-pt  -«ithin  a  cer- 
tain production  whan  milk  was  short,  got  a  certain  pric^:,  and 
in  times  of  over-production,  w,h«n  there  ^as  a  flood  of  iailk, 
he  got  so  much  ii^gts.   It  ^as  laade  plain  in  i&  written  contract, 
ansi  I  think  they  all  understood  it. 

Goaim.  BIBD.  Might  hav®  five  prices  at  ono  station  undvsr 


±  i 


•X,:  n    ^ 


yJt- 


149 
tha  map  plan? 

i?r.  CUSICSK:.     Might  ha,v&  daan  a  different  price   to  every 
farmer,  for   that  matter.     It  was  built  for  that.      It  vjas  a 
straight  contract  for  everybody,     if  one  producer,   along  those 
lines  of  even  production,   auccisaed  within  the  pjrcsntage 
allowed  for  over  production,  ho  got  th^  flat  pries.      If  he  made 
more  railk  than   that,  whan   tjhe  mlUc  was  short  here   in  Boston,   h^ 
got  an  increased  price  for  his  mxlk*     On   the  otn^r  hand,    if  he 
made  more  ailk  when  the  taarkat  was  flooa^d,   he  got  a  dacriased 
prise  for  it. 

Gomm.   SAWYS1>.      I   gat   you. 

Chairman  ALL?3?.     leli,   xve  will  take    the  jsiattsr  undsr 
advisement. 

2£r.   PATTES.     V7a  xmclsrstood   that   the  matt-sr  of  surplus  for 
I>ocamber  was  l^aft   over  for   the  Ooncaission  at    this    tiae.      As   I 
have  stated  bafore»  we  have  proce^dsd  on    the  itse'umption   that 
there  waa   to  be  no  surplus  ohAr^-biOj&  in  DsGambeT,   and  iiavs 
assumed,    and  wsj  still  assxs^,   in   the  abaj-nce  of  any  evidence 
to    the-    contrary Y  .--;-,- 

Hr.  GUSIOK.     Mr*   Chainaan,   it   is  now  luartar  of  five,   and 
I   still  have   the  accountants  here.     Thtiy  ai-e   vary  busy  man,   and 
I    am  goin/:   ^-o   -^sk  you  again  if  you  cannot  stsnd  tkam  out    to   seo 
if   they  cannot  get   thaee   cross-figures   in  condition  for    to- 
morrow morning.      If  we  are  going  into   these  surplus  figures 
for  DQCQmhor  at  this   time,    it  will  take   anothtor  hour. 

Ohairman  ALLEN.     I  understand  that  Ur«  Pattee  has   simply 
asked  for  a  ruling  of   the  Oommiasion  on  surplus  figures  for 

Mr.  PATTKS.  We  ware  toid  that  the  prec-int  pris-^s  would 
continue  during  tha  cionth  of  Beceniber,  and  aseumed  tliat  tlie 
surplus  was  a  part  of   the  price.     If  thsrs   is  a  different 


i 


150 
uni^ratonding,  ws  *ouicl  like   to  >jaow  it. 

Mr.   CUSIOK*     Thora  is  a  decidedly  diffyr^nt  und-...- re  landing. 
I  hive  papers  here   to  subaiit  to   the  Qouuaiasion,   your  oan  i©t- 
tai^  and  pap<?rs.      I  hivsn't   thasm  with  bjij  now.     I  did  not  coins 
hers  today  for  that  purpose,   but  I  want  to  submit   thoo'S.     Oxur 
understanding  is   tiiat   the  regiilar  surplus  plan  is   in  eff^act  in 
De comber. 

Chairman  ALLSN.      I    think  that   is  a  mattar  for  the  0ommi8sio% 
to  rule  upon. 

Mr.  OUSIGK.     I   suppos:i   tiiey  want   to  hear  our  •^vid^jnce  and 
want    to  know  about  tha   situation  before  raoking   the   ruling? 

Ohairaian  ALLEK.       Ws  do,     I   suppose  ws   can  i^ave   that  for 
tomorrow  morning? 

Mr.  CUSIOK.       Yae. 

Ohairaian  ALISN.     ifow,    hlr»   CJusick,   what   is  your  suggestion 
in  regard  to  the   accountants? 

^r.  aU3I3K.     I  find  by    tha  cost  shaet     submitted  by   the 
GoECTissioners'    accoxmtant  that  in  Eomo  ports   it  is  notiuite 
in  accordance  ^ith   ths   books.       ThsrefortJ,  without  a  oonfsrance 
between  ISr,  Hawkins  and  his  principal   ^nd  our  aecount;mt8  and 
our  principal,  vq  cannot  intelli^je-ntly  discuss  certain  dis- 
crepanoias  that  appear  between   ths  two   accounts,  which  shoiJLd 
be   cieariad  up  bo  as   to  m&ke   ths?a  comparabls.     My  suggestion 
is   that    ihs  Oomfflission  direct  Mr.  Hawkins   to    taks  tham  up  with 
Mr.  Wellington,    the  partios   b^ing  present,    and  sea  if   thscs 
tsro  figures  can  be  male  coiaparabla,   pr-sdnting   tha  results  in 
■sritin^   *o   ths  Coi^jission  in  the  morning. 

Chairman  ALLES.      Cannot  you  st.xte    the   diff srancys  'nar-s, 

now? 

Mr.   OUSIGK.      I  will  ougs«si   that  Mr.  Wellington  stile    the 
difftirsnces.     Hs  ie  b^jtter  informed  on  the  matter   than  I  am. 


^^nr 


Chairman  AIJLSN,        All  right. 


STATEiliiMT  BY  ^.   0.   OLIYm  mZtimTOlU 


Q     (By  Chaino'in  Alion.)     Mr.  Wellington,   can  you  state   to   tli® 

Ooaaaission  in  a  re%  words   just  what   these  dirfdrancee  are  that 
yoia  say  hava   to   t>e  threshed  out?  A.»     There  aT&  soras   diiT- 

ferenci&s  in  the  doliiar  and  cant  figures  which  we  wovild  llks 
to  aak    luostions  about,    and  a  tevi  of   thes!  are  so  larga   that 
it,   appeardd  that    the  expenses  sers   oi^gifi»d  in  a  sojaeifhat 
difforwnt  eav.       We  thought  if  w?»  coiild  go  over   ths  asattar 
with  Mr«  Haijfkins   and  find  out  exactly  what  ha  put  in  and  how 
litj  divid-sd  his  expenses,    it  would  says   ti^  Tor  ths  Oosaiission, 
and  «<s  coxiid  than  be  surs   that  we  wsra   on   the  samo  basic.  Th®n, 
on  the  unit  sheets,    anJ   cost  p->r  luurt  and  par  pint  in    th@ 
various  elaseif icatione,    thB  figiares  iis  submitted  for  H.   ?. 
Sood  ?c  Sons  do  not  follow  tht?  fonfi  ra^uired  by    the  Coajniocion. 
The  Uif f  .^-rancij   is  nut   of  ^r-jat  importance  except  that   the  pints 
sold  ^holsjsala  are  not   shown  at  ali» 

Obalrisaa  ALLIS*      It  Bn&mi   to    trie  Ooisausaicn   that  wo  should 
adjourn  the  ^enoral  session  nov/  and  go   into  executlvs  sossion, 
continuing   the  dij^cussion   in  rijgard   to    thBB9,  figurae  for  a  few 
moments.     ?h©  moating,    tharefors,    will  adjourn   to  10«.>C  o'elocJc 
toisorrow  gfsorninft   and  evorybody  will  ratiro  except  tho  i>artio5 
in   intarTJSt  haro  who  wish  to  5 a  heard  in  regard   tD    thass 
figure-s.        ^o   I   v<ill  now   call   tm  oxscutiV'S   sassir-n,   and    th« 
ra^ular  jseeting  ^sfiil   adjourn  -until  10. oO  o'clock   toaiorro«f 
sornlng. 

{?ho  raguly-r  s<^sslon  w-ris  s.djoui'nad* ) 


€ 


:-^: 


■        <: 


-..i?^    :ic:.  usrs 


S  ■■., 


v   . 


.-  %.■'•-.:       ■■■■•     ■.  •  '■  k»i'r      ■■"    ...  :-^..-       •■  .    .    ■.       -  .;.  ■  ■-  -I 


^ 


IH  SXEOUTIVB  S33SI0IT. 


Goam.  BIBD.  Mr.  Whiting,  I  undarstand  that  yoiir  company 
feels  that  ther©  is  so2i--t>iir^  that  you  want  to  gat  ironad  out 
here,   sosaa  diff er^snces  ofallocation.     Go  ahoad,   ^»  Wellington. 

Mr.  WSLLI¥OTOH.      If  you  r^fer   to    the  dollars  and  c^-nts 
sheet,  antitled  "Oonsolidatsd  sta tenant  of  Whole  iiilk  Opera- 
tions,  Month  of  Sspt'ifroiOsr,    191S" ,    I  hav^j  bafore  ma  the    two 
shiest  a. 

Ooaia.   BIUD.     You   are   talking  of  your  sh-^et   or  of    tits 
Kood  302ipany's  sheet? 

Mr.   WSLLI?fGT02s.      I   hav«  both  of    them  bafors  me,    for  com- 
parison.       I   thinlv   thatis  probably   fAut   oaot  '^ay   to  bring  out 
the  dif f^rsiHcee .       Th<.?  first  itam  that  varitss  apj^raoiably  is 
the   it«sm  for  ice,  which  corresponds  with   thd  iteia  of  rufrigar- 
ation  in  city  expansas.        Tii5  coat   as  ahown  by   tVie  Hood  etata- 
ment   is  considerably  less,        I   should  liKe-    to   ask  Sr.  Hawkins 
if  that   includes   ail  the   costs  of  ict?? 

Mr.  HAWKIHS.        Are  you  sp-aaicing  of    Ui&   iom  of   tbd   country 
expanse  or   tlri«  refrigeration  of   the  city  expenses? 

Mr.  WSILi:^GTON.       Both  of   thea  are  so  far  below    the  other 
floras  that  I  raise  the   same    jutjstion  on  both.       As    to  tiie 
cost  of  ice  xmdor  country  exp^ans'^  and   tiie  coat  of  refrigera- 
tion laidcr  the;  hoad  of  city  axj^ensas,    in  both  casas  the  figurvas 
of   tha  Kood  Company  sjem  rathar  los,    and  I   wonted   to  bj   sure 
that   thay  classified  thfe  items  as  *y  did. 

Mr.  EAWKISS.      Under   tlie   heading  of  country  expense  for 
icc»    they  h-iva  analysed  something  liite  150  accounts,    r^pr.js<int- 
ing  tha  expanse  icoounts  of   country  stations. 


».i 


.i  ',:  *>  ^• 


;Oij.i- 


..■*•■*.•    ,.    V5.   ■ 


a  I 


i-ci.-ff-vt 


^ 


Mr.  WSLIINGTON.      I   see. 

Mr.  HAWKINS.  And  v»9  hav^  taken  out  from  those  accounts 
the  charges  for  ica  Ahich  are  reprASdntad.  We  did  not  ^  up 
to    the   country  stations    to   osa   the   ict?  put   in. 

Hr,  WSLLIHOTO!?.     Neither  did  we. 

Mr.  HAWKINS.  We  assumed  that,  »lii;re  th.^re  sas  a  charge 
for  ic«   in   the  country  station,    that   sus   the   charge  for  ice, 

Mr.  WSLLINOTON.        I   s«e. 

Sr.  HAimrS.     We  have  her©  so:as thing  lilcs   about  175 
country  stations   shown  In  charges  for  ictf,nere.     Those  can  be 
taktn  off,    if  necessary. 

^.  WSIXIITGTON.      I   don't   thinic    it    is  nwcessary,    unidss 
tha  Oofflmission  das ires   it. 

Mr.   HA'Sl^lTSS.     iiirthermore,    the   Ciiarge  for  ic^j   is   reduced 
proportionately,    on   the  basis  first  between  mil}!:   and  cream 
voluae,    ind   thfjn  between  quarts  of  milk  at  the   country   station 
and  quarts  of  ciilK   V^^n  for  tdie  purpose  of   this  statement. 

Hr.  ISfeLIIfGTOH.  The  proportion  borne  by  the  Boston  ao- 
counta? 

Mr.  KAWVIHS.       Yes.     If  you  would  liKa   to  icnow  what    the 
total  charge  for  ice  is,    the    total  charge  for  ica   in    'hi   counJxy 
is  |2,700,    whils    the  proportion   vmich  ipplisis    to    this   st-atemsnt 
is  11,290. 

Mr.  WSLLINGTOK.     In  this   connection,    in  comparing   tiiose 
collar  and  cent  figures,   I   think   we   should  have   an  exact  figure 
of    the    total  volume  handled  by  E.    ?.   Kood   5-   .'^ons.      Thu   state- 
ment,   as  requested  by    the   Soajraisiaion,    .souid   sxiow  family,   whole- 
sale,   bottle   and   can  cost   par   quart  of  whole  .iiilk,     ma  on  a 
separate  statement   the   cost  per  pont  of  whole  rallk,    divids;d 
between  fajaily   and  wholesale  bottle.        The   statement   as  pre- 


^iltt 


f  '    >  -.•IJ.  i      ;*'."':'    :        l>..utf  "J  ?■-■ 


sentad  by  H.   ?•  Hood  &  Sons  ahowa  only  family  pint.5,  not  whoia- 
sale  pints. 

Mr,  HAWKINS.      I  will  admit   I   was  undar   the  impriJSsion  that 
only  family  pints  wore  desired.     The  cost   of  wholasalii   yints 
wotild  be    tht*  same  down    to    ths  point  of  delivery,   and  approxi- 
aatsly  divided  by  2-l/2. 

Mr.  WjSLLINOTON.     Kava  you   the  volume?     «e  are  mora   in- 
terested in   the  voluaie. 

Mr.  HAWKIMS.     I    think  I  ha,vs  8ha*n  it   thare. 

Mr.  WSLLIHGTOH.     Ho,    you  haven't   shoim    the   voiuma. 

Mr.  HAIFJHS.     Noj    I    can  givu    that    to  you,    though,    I   guess. 
Vhftt  is   the  itjestion? 

Mr.   WELLIHGTO}!.     As   to   the    total  volume  of  whole  miUc 
sold  —  that  is,    the   gramd  total. 

Mr.  HAr/JNS.     Within    the  Boston  district? 

Mr.  WSLLlMaTOH.        T«s. 

'ir.  KAWKIHS.     T?*itail  or  whole  sola? 

Mr.  WSLLIHGTOH.  Sverything  put  together,  or  figxires  so 
that  it  can  be  put  together. 

Sr.  HAWKINS.     You  ar's   considering  now  aodifiad  Biilk, 
buttanniUt,    skim  lailX,— 

Sir.  OUSIOK.     lo;   fluid  whole  lailK. 

Mr.  HAWTIHS.  Weil,  if  you  t^e  my  tigur^  thara  and  add 
175,290  pints,  vmich  is  tlm  quantity  of  pints  sold  wholesale 
within   the  Boston  district,   I   guess   that   is  what  you  want, 

Mr.  WSLLISGTOS.     How,    what  dia  you  do   v¥ith   that  175,000 
pints?     Did  thsy  go  into   the  wholesale  quarts,   or  wer^J   they 
left  out  entirely? 

Mr.  HAWKIHS.     ilo,    sir;   left  out  entirely. 

Mr.  ISLLINOTON.      I   see. 

Mr.  HAWVJHS.        That  leaves   37,000    quarts  of  mili;  out   of 


-:'■), 


^VlXC     j.V     :,.- 


.i/;ti&X0fi^ 


*  .;  ,;.  s-    I   >.. -■  ii.. 


2,543,000   and   soaji  odd. 

Oonan.  BI"RD.     What  diffsrsnce  would   that,  maSca  in  those 
f Iguros? 

Mr.  HABTKIHS.      ?fo  difforsnce  at  all, 

2&r,   OUSICK.     You  say  thore  would  not  bs  any  diffdrenca  In 
your  loss  here,    taftting  into  eonsidoration   that  175,000  pints? 

Mr.  HAWKIFS.     If   thera  was  a  loss. 

Mr.   CUSIOK.        Thard   certainly  was   a  loss. 

Mr.  HAWKISrS.     You  )inow  that.      I  don't. 

Hr.  CtlSIGT?:.     Yes,   air,   I  know  that. 

Cofflffl.   SAWYER.        Mr.  HawKins,   was    that  175,000  pints,    or 
175,000   luarts    in  pints? 

jlr.   KAWKIFS.        175,290  pints,    or  87,645   quarts.      If   it  was 
one  mill  a  quart,    it  woiild  ba  about  |87.      If  you  should    ^por- 
tion that  mill  ov^r  t?/o  irtillion  quarts,   I  don't  know  whare  you 
would  lind. 

Mr.  WSLLIS'GTOH.     Of  course,   nobody  i.now3  whether  ths  ons 
aaiil  is   a  correct  figure. 

Mr.  HAWKCFS.       Wo,    and  I   don't  know  evsn  -^h^^th^r  it  is  a 
gain  or  a  loss. 

Mr.  WSLLIHGTOH*     On   this  same   quastiion  of  classification* 
you  hava  a  heading  •Kot-3is   ^na  Bsstaurants,   Quarts.*        What 
doss   that  rtiprssant,-   tha   totai  aiUc   sold  hotels  and  restaurants 
or  thii   total  sold  in  cans? 

Mr.   HAUiaif?.     That  reprijssnts  railK   sold  in  S-l/2  quart 
cans* 

}£r,   WSLLIHGTOH,  And  "Store  Quarts"  includes  hotsls  and 
restaurants? 

Sr.  HAWKINS.     ?fo;   quarts  of  aillc  s<|ld  in  bottias. 

Ur,  WSILIHOTOH.      Whether  to  store,   hotels   or   anything? 

Mr.  IiAWKIKS.        Weil,   lat  laa    soa.     I  will  answer   that   in  a 


'Ji'J^l'. 


•i,^"* 


-ijii    f,-r 


:r..l.     )C.i.v;^     ^;  .!,..;..• 


;*':X';^  i-CnC  .    ■'*;-• . 


*(.  V      %,  i^ 


minute.     Whit   is   the  qua st ion? 

ar.  WSLLIHGTCSr.     Whether  the  coliffiin  haaded  "Store  Quarto" 
includes  all  sold  to  atorss? 

Mr,   HAWaUS.   You  will  hava   to  asjSE.   the    jjj-iYgra   that     be- 
cause we  classify   thesa  quarts  undur  mixed  whoiesal©  routes, 
tmder  purs  ho  ttie  routes ,    undar  mixed  fa.7illy  routes ,   and  also 
eoiMf  pure  family  routes.        Now,   ^ust  w.hare  they  ware  sold  I 

didn*  t  invea  tigate . 

Mr.  WELLIMGTOS.     The  Ooaoaiagion  re-iueeted  at    the  last 

hearing  that   that   olasaif iceition  h^,   family,   wholesale  bottle, 

and  Citne. 

Mr,  iiAWKIMS.       Yaa.     W-3li,    thsrs  was  no  classificatxon  of 
that   available,   so  we  undjrtooig.   to  show  the  oost  of  bottled 
fflilk   sold  whoiasald. 

Mr*  WSLLIHSTOH.     Shethar  it  was   to  a  hotal,   a  restaurant 
©r  a  stars?  __  /•■.;■  :•■': 

Mr.  HAWltlMS.      I   cannot  see  where  tiiatt  would  mak©    v^ry 
siuoh  diffi^renc®. 

2a* »  WIXLIHITOK.      I   »i*.nt-3d   to  b®  smrv  of    th-3   volume. 

Mr.  EAITiawS.     Oh,  my  volume  is  all  right. 

Mr,  WSLLIHOTOM.      15i©  "Store  Quarts*  you  show  aa  589,000, 
xmdijr  "Store  Quarts',   and  undar  *Jiat«i8   and  Ba e taur a>n ts, Quar ts"  , 
337,^300. 

Mr,  HAW13HS.     That  means  in  c:m^, 

Mr.  WSLLIHOTON.        StricUy. 

Mr,  KAWl-eiHS.     And   the  other  moans  in  bottles.     If  you  'want- 
's d  to   gst   til  at,   you  would  probably  hav3   "o   hxve    tha  arivars   in 
here. 

Mr,   ISLLI^GTOW.      Of   coursa.we  went   to   the   routes  and  dx- 
vided   thsia  up, 

Mr.   HAi;/¥lH5.      The    f«;-liovi-  who   sold   to   hotsis  wouldn't   think 


,  id'::. 


»  frii?!'  '■     "■ 


*  V.-*- 


6 


of  sailing  any  milic   to  a  stox*©  at  all. 

Mr.  MILLETT.     As  I  understand  it,    this  •Store  Quarts*   in- 
oludos  all  tha  wholesale  bottlsd  alUs:. 

Mr.  RAWfJm*       Yes. 

Mr.  MUXSTT.     And   th.Q  "iioteis   and  l?estaurants,Q^uarts* , 
wholasala  can  milk? 

Mr.   KAWiaMS.        Yes. 

Mr.  HSLLINOTON.     ^iSfeXl,    the  haaalng  is  not  cies^r,    and  I 
wanted  to   bs  sure. 

Mr.  HAWyiNS*     Soli,    sfc  a^^cae  on  that. 

Mi".  WSILISOTOIJ.      On  tiiat    lu.-jstion  of   ice,    again,    did  you 
tsike   thii   astutU.  d-yponse  i'or  ice  for  that  ons  aonth,   or  wag 
that  a  proportion?       TJiat  is,  t??jra   thssra  any  records  of   th^ 
corapanT  which  showed  the>   €S<act  £>a3r-fflsnts  for  icie   in  that  par- 
ticuiar  month,   or  wae  that   tho  proportion  over  a  period  of 
sa-onths   that  inade  a  f&ir  charge  for  that  raonth  of  Saptesbar? 

Mr.  HAWKIJT3.  %"a  ':ooi;  ^^a*.'  charges  t>xat  indiCRted  lo©  on 
til©  booKs  of  t.hs  eoiupany*  As  I  said,  sve  tiidn*t  go  up  tc  tlis 
stations   to  sae   tlaat   tir;at  actual  amount  of  icfi  ^agt  actually 

put    in    UB9. 

Sr.  aSLLIHQlDEi.     Would   Qiat  ba-  tins   ic»  p-urchaasd  in,  that 
Kjcnth,   stored  and  usau  in  later  aontiia? 

Mr.   ilAlKI^S.      It  t-iOuid  bti    tiiA  loti   us«(i   tijat  iiiOntii,    I 
Bhoula   say. 

Mr.  WJSLIIKGTOS'.      Tiiking   the  inventory  each  month? 

Mr.   HAWiaKS.        Y&e. 

Mr.  MILLEYT.     Hot   th«  exact   ice,   but  approximately  an  in- 
ventory at    the  end  of  »ach  month.     That  is  what  it  amo-onte  to, 

in  affect. 

Mr.  tSLLINOTOJr.  Talking  your  f i^uras  for  ice   in    the 

country  and  rufrig^ration  in  the  city  the  f ignore  saeina    to  bs)  a 


r">  :\  y  *  .■ 


,.    :ofe.;i*-r,p-v,J'i...  t 


■."■.  i     i'.<s 


h7«4 


:!' -■;•.....  ;?  -iiJ    i/hS.:.;     >:;;!; 


:-^i.jil^>:^  dlA;;,-- 


-  -^  '^        15   ■    V 


v<^ry  low  one. 

Mr,  KAWyJHS.     What   is   the  question? 

Mr.  WBa[J.IH070H.     Your  rsfrigeraticn  cost  is  considerably 
less   tiian   that  of  B.  Whiting. 

Mr.  HAWKINS.        Yes. 

Mr.  WSLLINGTOK.     And  I  a'ondered  if  you  had  evarythlng  in 
thara  that  belonged   txit^re. 

Mr.  EAWKIIfS.      I  had  everything  that  was  on   the   booKs. 

Mr.  !KELLIHGTOS.     Well,    is  it  a  fact    that   th3  Hood  Oompany 
aake  th^ir  ovm  ice,    instss^  of  purchaaing  it? 

Mr,  HAWKINS.      Mr.  Millatt  says  no.      I   am  not  familiar  with 
that. 

Mr.  W3LLIIT0TCN.      That  wovild   reprsfSent   the    total  purchasas 
of    iC9? 

Mr,  MILLSTT.     Psprseonts  all  ice  vsed. 

Mr.  WSIXIHOTOH.     I  •arae  raisings   thd   lutsstion,   because  I 
could  not   account  for   'he  fact  that  your  ic3   cost,   your  ra- 
frigeration  coat,   \»3e  less  than  a  quarter  of  D.   Whiting  &  Sens', 
according  to  ths  oonsclidatsd  statemant,    ani  the  Aldan  figur<3S 
show  about   the  same  proportion  as  compared  witii   ths  Whiting 
figures,    the  Aldan  figurss  for  r  dfrig^sration,-  |l,28Q,    as  com- 
pared with  your  $1,477,    -xni.  th«  volume  of  Alien  Brothers   is 
about  ons-fifth  or  sixth. 

Oosira.   SAWYiill?.     I  would  like   to  asfe  right  hers,   rdf  srring 
to    tha  Whitings,    do  you  have  artificial  ri^'frigeration  or  do 
you  buy  iC3? 

Mr.  OUSIOK.     W»  have  some  artificixL,    and  'iite  buy  also. 
I  Coiam.   SAWY5;B.     Ko*   is   it  i^ith   tha  Hoods? 

Mr.   MIILSTT.      Ws  hav9   gome   artificial  refrigeration,   but 
there   is  no  way   to  jcaap  that  distinct  from  our  general  fuel 
and  power  account.     It  is  not  a  v^ry  large  sxim. 


^  .,  -.      »  *  < 


*  ^noi. 


■'.i.-,     ^iiSil 


1'  ■':'  "^.^f.  "-K    ■  ■"-■  "a        .^'\-  -,    '-.:    \ 


'">:'ii-'^>-.^::    c^. 


aomra,   SAWYHf?.     "Vou  uaa   ioe,    too? 

Mr»  M^XSTT.      Usq   ice,    too. 

Ur,   aUSIOK^        This  figure  of   tha  Hools  for  ioe  is  about 
one-fifth  of  oure,    and  about  ona-fifth,   for   thtj  volxaae,   of 
Aids no' . 

COEun,  S'tfAYj:!l»     I  understand. 

Mr,  ISLLI^CTOU.      teOfiera  would   that  it«®  for   th&  ojctra  cost 
of  fuel  or  poaar  that  you  would  hava,   appear?     If  it  does  not 
appear  in  the  rsfrigaration,    it  znust  havw   cost   thsj  company 
soai(3 thing  to   cool   that  isilk,    imd  undar  whiit   xtis®  would  it  com-3, 
if  not  uni«r  •Befrigeratlon*? 

Mr,  iOLLiiTf.        Under  h^^at,   light   and  pcvar,-  couldn't  b© 
anywhdre  else, 

Mr.   WELLIHGTOSr.      That   is,    in   that   cam©  city  .JXi^nasa 
classification,  haat,    light  and  powsr? 
I  Mr.  MIIXETT.        Yas,_ 

Goiam.  SA'^YSH.       Mr.  liillington,    take  shsst  2  of  D. 
j  Whiting,    the  last   coluian,    undar  "Cans",    that  figure   525,043 
is   luarts? 

Mr.  '^SLLIKaTOH.       Yaa. 

Oom&,   SAWY3B.        ICot   ctins? 

Mr.  WSLLIHOTOW.     Quarts,   d^ivered  in  cans. 

CJosasi.   SAWYSS*        Yss,   that   is  as   I   undaratood  it. 

Ml-.   UAWIBB*      That   is  all  ri^ht. 

Mr.   WELLINGTON.      Is    that  Ice  bought   in  Boston  or   in   the 
country? 

Mr.   liAWia:HS.       Mr.   Millet  t   can   :inswer   trxat.      I   aon't  buy 
the  ice. 

Mr.  2IILLSTT.     Soas  bought  in   ths  country  and  eoiae  shipped 
in   to  us. 

Mr.  WSLLIHOTON.   I  suppose  you  contract  ahead,  don't  buy 


froai  day  to  day,  but   contract  ahecui? 

Mr«  HAWyiNS.     I   don't  ISnow  how  they  do  buy  it. 
Sir.  lELLISQTO!?.     If  you  contract  for  a  year's  supply  in 
tha  country  and  it  coa-is  dowi  piecerasal,   there  is  a  shrinkage 
betwft'sn  *hiit   vou  bny  ar<3   what  you  finally   aret,   and   I  Wia,nte<5 
to   know   wheth-~r    thie  month  Yuxf:    Its  prrper  proportion. 

Mr.   7.in:.LKT7.        It   is  all   apivOitiomcl,    th«   proper 
parcenta?^©. 

Mr,  WSIiUKiTOK.  BecJiusf  th3  amount  purchased  by 
Alfl^r.  Frcth«re  is  alnoi-t  aa  muoh  as  your-  figure,  ind  your 
srolura?    ia   fiv2    ti:.i-2s  as  much. 

Mr.    iJlLLlTT.        I  won't   attempt    to   eiv   in  rssia^^ 
to   th^at ,   beciue3    !   don't   k:^o«. 

Mr.    ?'^LLIKv?OH\         I   .just   »ar.ts<3    to  have    th?t    Ti^.ixrBB 
arranrsd   for  purpose e  cf   coriparlson   in   ths    esfaa  «ay,    eo 
that   tha:/  could    c-s    compared.      Ths  next   question    is   the    coet 
of  cans   iTid   stopple e.        The    it-^^n   is   tl,055,    under    che   head- 
ing of  "Country  Expanse. * 

Mr.    "AfKI??-S.         What   do  you  ^.sr.t   to    know   .about    it? 

Mt.    rSLLIHlTOSi.        Wh^-it   kin-?    cf    5  teas  sent    in,    — 
thf    soEt   of  c^ns  purch^E'Sd   (luring   ths  aonth,   repairs  «f  cujib? 

Mr.    HAWKIKS.        T   think   It   is   ths   depreeia.t ion  on 
the   c-iiTis. 

Mr.    fTHlLIJIITCK.        But   all   dssprsciation  ?fas   cupposed 
to  "ba  down  undar  "Fixed  Ohargee." 

Mr.    HAfKDJE.        f©   didn't  put    %h^  dap  re  ci  cation  on 
cans  ther^  -wh^n  wg   h-ad  a  special   cl^ssif ic-ttion   for    it,    I 
think. 

CosL^alssionsr  SAI?T2K,        I  would  lika    to  "b?    sure 
of    the  m&tter.      I  belisva  ws    -irs  now   tiilj?iris^   of   cana  -^nd 


s     ..< 


10 


etopplas,   and   I   eao    that   triors   ie  «tleo  an  iter?  for  car.s  and 
8toppl9  6  uiidsr  "TV* livery  Ixpene®.*  So«,  you  would 

hftvs  sO!s»  repairs? 

Mr.    HA1?KIRS.        Y^e,    tinemith  charts.      That   is  here. 

Oeasi.    SAW^rSR.        What   doea  evgrythirsin^  but  d«  pre  ela- 
tion a®.o«nt    to?     —   ?h%t   ie,    if   yoti  huve    it,    approxtea.tsXy? 

Mr.   HAWKIHS.        $153.56,   charga   for  fixing   the   csna 
in  the  cGuntry. 

¥r.    WSLLIN'ITOK.        And   ths  ■balarce    ie   deprs elation? 

Mr.    O'JSI^K.  And  oare,    $23.96. 

Mr.   fSIXISuTOK.        vour  c«is  and   stopples,   country 
expanse,   l«ss  deprsclitlon,    is  |183.55. 

Mr.   H^tWKTSS.        Th  .t    is  net   the    total.      I   took   th» 
total   cart  oharga,   apportioned.      I   took  the    total   can  charge. 

Mr.   WSLLIilTOK.        The  dsprsclation  should  h-*v« 
"bsan  d©«n  in  t.^a  bottora  figure,   in   the  •Fixad  Charges." 

Mr.   HAWKINS.        If  that   ie   bo,   amd   I  believe   it    ie, 
th«n  T  did   not  und^retand  this  particular  elaself  icat  ion 
eorr-actly. 

Oorni.   SAWTfR.        Ir*t  ^-aek  yoti,  Mr.    Hawkin©,    to 
cli&ar  this  up.       Tour  c^ne  and  stoppleg  fleure   is  $1,066.34. 

Mr.  HAWKINS.   In  th*»  country, 

Ooma.    SAWyER.        That   is  right,    isn't    it? 

Mr.    HAWKISS.        It   s%y8  hers  imdar  103,    rsfsrring 
to  cane  and  etopplss,    that  to   this  aeeount  "sh^l  be 
charged  daprtci'it  ion,   repairs  aaid  recovery  expanee  on  the 
cans  ueed  in  the   country.* 

Co?5HB.    SAWYSR,        JuBt   a  minute.      Answer   the    question. 

Mr.   HAWEIRS.        I  don't   know  whether   that   is  rijrht, 
Hr.    Wellington,   byt   that    is  what   it   saye. 


f>Ct.- 


trf^ 


la    ;.\') 


■  ■}'t('^^-Art>'  '<cXL^'t\i 


giseJ' 


-1  >  '  \  i-r'^y 


■  •-•;■    ^f  :■ 


:.i     :v'/r-:vtr 


11 


Comm.    SAtySR.        fall,   just  misv&r  aiy  qusetion. 
That   H,0<56,5>4  covers   the   deprsciation  of  ems'? 

Mr.    HAWKINS.        In  tha   coxmtry, 

Ocmm.    8AWTSH.      io* ,   Mr.   Wallins^ton,   youre  do^s  net 
cover  depre ola»tioT3? 

Mr.   WSLLIR-aTON.      Tee.        I  will  call  your  attention 
to    th«  naxt   atattawjnt,  which  has  account  nuEifcera  on  it, 
smd   there   our  can©  amd  etopple^  itsm  doa»  includ®  deprs ela- 
tion,  at©   it   is  35y  und^retar.diisg  that  it   should.      But,    at   tl::^ 
express  request  of   th«  Ooamiaeion,    in  preparing  this  dollars 
«md  cdnts  etatemsnt,   ws  ware  requasted  to   taKa  out  all 
iutar^afe,    t€oc»B,    inBurar»cs  and  daprsoiation,   and  show   them 
at   th®  l?ottom,   and    thoe©   oHtounts  a^ppaar  tinder  "Fixad 
Charges,"    in  statement  No.   1. 

Mr.   HAWKINS.        Waten't   that   suggestion  aiaendsd? 

Mr.   r^LLIBaTOfS.        Thsre  was  a  st^ttesaant   in   the 
masting  to   th®  effect   tha-t   I   have   sugsestad,  ,,  •  .       _ 

Mr,    HAWKINS,      This  particular  paragraph  103  wae 
BOt  sysendeS,    thoijgh,   was   it?  ,  : 

Mr.   cansiOK.         For  figuring  unit  costs  that  ^as 
followed,   hut   this  statement   So.    1  has  always  b«en  supposed 
to   sho*  all   the   fixed  charges  jjrowped  i*t   the  hottom.      On 
our  shaat  h@r«  you  «ill   sea   ttw   items  referred    to  given   in 
th«   fixed  QtiiSLTg^B  at    the  hotton  of    th9    8h^^^t. 

Mr.    BAfKISS.        Yes,    but   th«    t«xt   of    cha    report 
doss  not  ahow    tha,t ,    so   I  followed   tha   t9xt. 

Mr.    WtLLimiOn.      t®ll,    if  you  oaii,  giv®   \:s  sithsr  soi 
sx»et   or  approxiaatie   figurs  of   the  amoimt   for  cans  and   stop- 
ples,  actually  spsnt   in  th©  country,   ■?©   can  figiira   that  up. 


-  .?■«*:,'  .'J 


r'c-i-    r? '  --  ■* 


ai     ?^'  ■  ■y/Ci/j. 


H-^-i'-  n 


^V^siwlrt?    3it'rt    X 


■0       .^^i  i-j.-\ 


»/i?r;.j?. 


S.  -i  i>  :^'  ■'■  ■  .* 


12 


Mr.    HAWKI8S.         I  wouldn't   care    to   do    thtit,    unlese 
I  had  actually  fisured    th«n^  out    , 

Mr.    tSLLIKlTO?i.        I   Bupposa  you  would  IsQ   billing   to 
BuTsmlt  an,  tstiraats,   an  approxinuit  ion? 

Mr.    HA.WKIBE.        ATt«r   I  figure  it  cmt,    I   will. 

Ooasi.    BAfVVR,        j,0{;   -5BJQ   ask  yoii  a  questioti,  Mr, 
Hasfkine.      If   that  dapraciation  had  'beQc   included,   as  you 
eay  it  has,    in  thiit   item,  of  csfcne  ar^d  etopplsB,    it,   of 
courss,   would  T?ot   ?a.pp32u*  agair,    in  dspraciation  at   £h&   "oottosi 
ef   tha  pa2«? 

Mr.    HA^KISS.        Ho,    sir. 

COMM.    8A1FYIR.        Wher^aa,    if  yoa  h?id  not   included 
it,   Mr.   Wellinfton,    in  yo^ir  "Ostns  and  Stopples'   under 
"Country  "ffxp^Rce,*   It  wculd  app«&r  down  in  your  d^pi^ecia- 
tion? 

Mr.    rSI.LIH070F.        It  do<»8   so  appear, 

OdsaJ.    SAWYSH.  It    is   eldsply   the   differsr^c^    in 

your  v!f«,y  of  grouping   th*   flgurse,   and  jou  are    tryin.^   to 
etiow   th%t    tn«  book  h«r«   h&s  not  been  followed  exactly? 

Mr.    fm.LIK3TGH.        Trying   to  get    th«    two   eats  of 
figures  oc  th«    safns   baeie,    that   Is  all. 

Mr,    HAWKINS.        Er.    fsiliKgton    ie   trying   to    ehow 
that   I  did  not  get   the    msbs^querrt   instruct jcne.      Is  that 
the   idea? 

Mr.   WELLINl'TOW,        Mc.        In  th«   "book,   cf  course, 
the   accounts  ar©  numb^rad.        No,   103   is  wnat  you  have 
referred   to  islr@?*dy,    in  (Explanation;   bat   for   ens   dollara 
6knd  ©ante  »tafc«m«nt   thss   book  requires  tha   dollaira  and  cents 
for  d«pr<9cSation  to  tea  all   grouped  tof9th«r  in  one  place 
at   tha  Ijottoa. 


-  i  f 


;::>.:,.,:  5 .  »'^.i^    >'-'\,   t-ri.::-    ^;;~' 
iO     3  3  SJ     0*:i     *iij      .f'^T     :^;'' 


.  <:  «";•■.!-■ 


13 


Mr.   HAWKINS.        Does    this  book  show    that? 

Mr.    tlI.LIR3T0K.      It   is  my  lmpr«g8lon    that    it   ao«B. 

Mr.    OTSICK.      Orj   the  'blus  print,      not   in  ths   book; 
"but    th<z   bltis   print    ie  part   of   the  'book.        It   s-^yei,    "1037 
in    the   book.        That    le    tha   nnit   cost.        This  $1,066.24   that 
yo\2  r^fer   to,  Mr,    Fawyer,    is  not  all  depreciation. 

Coaim.    SAIfy^R.        I  imderetand. 

Mr.    OtTSirJE.      B«caii£59    $154   is   to  "ba   allocated, 
I    fixed  tip  t?ith  the    ?th«r. 

Mr.    WBIXIKITOS.        Juet  to  clftar  up   this  qaeation  of 
iTigt ructions,    for  3£r.    rlawkins'   bstiefit,    Sr.    Ambach  calls 
ai:.'  attantior.   to   ths   fact   th?it  thera    is  no  definite   instruc- 
tion  in   thia  book  as  to  how   ths    etata-raent  of  «hol3   niilk 
cper-atjon  ehoald  he  put  togisthsr.      It  Trae  the   intsnticn, 
in   thg   first   plac©,    th^t    th?    fixed   chai'ges  as  shown  at    the 
bottom  of   the   original  bl^as  print   ehould   includs   all  fixed 
charges.     That  was  taken  up  before   th©   f3om?al88ion  at  tha 
last   ^!«®ting,   an5   instructions  «rer©  taad!?   definitely  in   i'^- 
gard  to   the   sattar. 

CosBa.    SAWVSH.         I   ram«5sb9r   it. 

Mr.    WSLLlWiTOn,        And   if  Mr.    Ha-^kins  did  not   recoil'© 
a  copy  it    is  wnfortxmate,   because  hs  irctdd  9!ieily  gst 
confused   in  that   ca0«.        I  would  ask  Mr.    Hawkins   if   the 
othsr  cottutry  ©xp^nea   it*Ms  include   d^prseiation? 

Mr.   VAWFJm.      T  think  not. 

Mr.   W^LII^ITO'*.        That   is  the  only  on«? 

Mr.    ITAWKIHS.        T    think  eo, 

Mr.    frSLLIFC-70^.        How,    the   next    its-:   if,   "Oicy 
Ixpenoe.*        That  cosies  next  undar   tha  heading,   "Country 


?tr!-^^^   ?^ 


•^rti.i7!^H 


<^    h  Ir-sw    *:-1 


A"".-*. 


T.-  ■       —  f  .-T—, 


.  -i);; 


14 


Sxp9nse,*  after  "Cana  and  Stopplae.*        W©   huiv»   fcersi^d   it 
*Gity  Receiving  "Sxpenw.*        That   in  a  figora  that   is  much 
l#8s  than   the   fig'.ire    ir.   the  Whiting   BtatsmsB t .      In  tJ«t 
Whiting  account,    th9   Itesi  le  called  "City  ^ecsiving  Expanse.* 
Vhi&t   Ite^xB  have  you  includad   in   this  it®si  of  "City  llxpsns»« 
or  "City  l^calving  Expends, •*  urjdiar   the   heading  "Ootrntrji- 
Expen&e"? 

Ml'.    HAfKIHS.        Meet  of    that   is   trucking,    '^ir.    Welling- 
tOB,    from   the   railroad   ir    t>»«  city   to   tt-9   plart    in    the   citj^,--^ 
Bsoet   cf    it    is.        Ycj  will   notlc*    there    that    I   h%vs   not    in- 
clndsd  any   itsm  for  aec^tmting.      That   ite^s  fcr   account ir^ 
▼ould   T-^pr^B^T.t  l&bor,    iacEtly,   -shiah    Ie    included   in  the 
labor  j  tsm. 

Kr.    W1LLT?!CT0*.        Under  what  labor   item? 

Mr,    HAWKIFIS.        ^Ind&r  *<;oiiRtry  Sxpynse"    —    that    ie, 
the    e Varies  cf  the  clsrke  engaged  in  SkCccimtiRg  in   the 
off lc9    in   the  city  has  teen   included  under  lator.     That 
would  Ibe  practic^ly  an  accounting  sxpenee. 

Mr.   W?XXI!'aTOK.        That   certainly  deas  not   make   it 
cl^ar. 

Mr,    VA^Zim,        I  will   grant   that,   hut  we   didn't 
exactly  entirely  re^-rite   tiiese  "booke,   as  you  undarei^and. 

Mr.    WSLLI^afO!^,        I   know,   hut   that   ehcula   not   af- 
fect  tl"^    iterR,    ""ity  ^-xpenm ." 

Mr.    HAtrif^S.        Th'ire  raay  fee  otha-r   itei^s  along 
thosf>  lino«.        Moot   cf   the    city  expenee    ie   trueklnx,    though. 
X  c%Ti.  tell  yotj  that. 

Wr.    WKTJJMTOS.        Doee  it    include  any  l&hor? 


15 


Mr.    HAWKIWS.        Tn&   labor  on   trucks,    yes,    air. 
iir.   s^LLIHlTOK.        Doss  it  include  any  labor  at  tha 
receiving  elation  ite«lf? 

Mr,    HAWKINS.        Mo;    that   rscslvin.T;    etSktlon  would  bt 
incltMed  tmder  city  expanses,  ¥r.    Wellington. 

Mr.   tlLLIHaTON.        Should   it  b«? 

Mr.    RAfFKISS.        Well,   now,    I    gu®BB  prob&My  you,  can 
•nsrtar  that  jaet  as  w«ll  as  I  ean. 

Mr.  S?11*LIIICJT0K.  fell,  us  hsuv©  put  in  hsr«  tmdsr 
*Oity  Expense"  th9  labor,  in  fact  all  th^  eost  of  jotting 
th»  aailk  frem.  tha  cars  to   ths   plant. 

Mr,  HAITKIKS.  Woyl<3  that  includa  dspreciation  or 
th9   city  platfcria,   too?  I»r.»t   that  part  of   the   city  ex- 

pans*? 

Mr.    WtLLI?)GTO^ .        Sursly.  ' '  ^^  y^ 

Mr.    ^AWKIFS.        irhy   iKolud«   on®,    a.r;d  not   th®    ether? 

Mr,   WBlXISaTOK.        That   coai*8  tinder  "Fixed  Charge t." 

Mr.   TiAFXISE,        That  r@o«ivlng  platform,   ae  we  have 
It,    is  a  city  9XpenB®»  It   includes  labor,   lijjhtilig, 

powar,    suppliiE,   mi eosllfitneouB  Itswe.    "     ■ 

Ir.   fl^LLIIIJTOR.        Yoiar  it®m  for  labor  under   the 
he^^ing  "City  Sxpen»«*    inclxidiss  all   the  labor   that  we 
would   show   -uiKjer   the   he--i<2irg  -of  *Clty  Receiving  Sxpenre* 
and  ssl«o  imd^r  tha   heading  'Labor,*       That   is,    it   includes 
all    th?  labor  in  Soston  cr  in  your  city  recalving  et^ticr? 

,Mr.    RATOIFS.        Fay  that  again? 

Mr.   WILLII^STCR.        Doe©  year  labor  lindsr   th©    item 
•fJity  !?xpen8«"    inolud®   all  yev-r  l&bor  at    ths    rfec»iving 
•tat ion? 


ir-mfi;- 


■  ■-;    <•■■     - 


16 


}^,   HAW?:TNS.        Yas,    sir.        and«r  "City  ^xpsr.se"    tha 
itoffi  of  $l,71»t?.46  would   tnolude   the  proportion  of  that 
labor  at    th«  x^adlvinc:  platfcra, 

Mr.    WSLLII* j70r*.      So    tfi&t    there    is  practic&lly 
nothiTiiT;   in   thi©   Item  of  cornet ry  ©xpena^   for   city  raceiv- 
ing  «xe«pt    th^J   trucks  ana   labor  on  tha   trucke? 

Mr,    HAWKINS.        Yse,    thiit    is  about  what    It    is. 

Mr.    ^ILLTHOTOH.        !>9pt^ciation  on   thoss    trucks? 

Hr,    HAWKINS.        Yes,    sir, 

Sr.    ?rFLLIN 'JTO'^,        That  go«B  do-vrn  Tjelow. 

Mr,    HAWKIHS.        D^prsoiation    is  all  do-sn   belcw,    thar«. 

Mr.    SIAHS.      What   itsjns  rmike   up  your   figure   of 
$6,§S3.09,   uud^r  "Oitv   Racsiving  Sxpersa,"  Mr.    Wellinfton? 

Mr,  vmJLlW'lfOn,  That  ie  thg  trucking,  such  as  Ur, 
Hawkins  lnolud*<i.  That  also  inoltjdss  th9  labor  cf  getting 
the  cans  "^ff   the   cars  and  on   to   the  plant. 

Mr.    S1AHS.      You  n^ar. ,   from   ths    trucks   into   the   plant? 

Mr.    O'JSIOK.      From  ths    trucks    into    th«   plant   or  from 
ths  care  into    the  plant,  ferin,fi:ing   tha  erapcy  can©  back, 
tying   th?»ffl  up,    s^Dding   tham  -iloiig,   whiitever   thsy  <3o. 
That    is   ths   way   they  t«ll   ue   to  do   it,   bacaue^t    tne   next 
thing  fltagrte  with  proosesing. 

Mr.    W2XLIH::5TCN.      For    tha    itsai  cf    shrinkage   you  eho« 
a  vsry  small   ^i.'Bount  und«r   ths  hsiiding  of  "Ocuntry  ^sqpane©" 
and  a  large  OBount   imder  tha   heading  of  "(Jity  Sxp«n8*8.* 

Mr.    HAWKINS.        Yea,    air.      As  I   rersember  «y  inter- 
view with  your  Mr.   Perkine,   wa  knew  what  our  shrinkage 
account  wae,   and  you  didnH  —  on   the  baeie  of  ona    third 
and    two   thirda,    eorae thing  like    that.      «9   knaw  whit  our 


■k?  ,??■ 


J  % 


^^^.i.;   ■■-■•  .•:•    riutr^o  «<='* 


17 


exACt   ehrinkag©  wajB,   and   it   is   included    there. 

Mr.   r^XtlHOTO^.        I  B99,       Your  inward  frtight   it©m 
eee^B  rather  e^sall   in  proportion  to  th»    total  purchafi^B. 

Mr.  HAffKIKS.  That  inward  freight  ite?a  inoludss 
the  frei^it  on  the  milk  which  vt^  imve  charged  up  here  in 
this  report,  3,343,000  qtiaifts,  what»v«r  it  is.  That  is 
not  the  toea.1  freight  on  ©tar  milk,  chat  waa  paid  out,  of 
couree . 

Mr.    WBLLIBxJTOK,        Bo^s   th.%t    inclisda   any   fr®i3;ht   on 
ourpl\i8? 

Mr.    nAWKins.        It   includSB  the  freight  on  *ai   th® 
alii.     ?ba.t  figwre   is  d<*riv»s<i  by  taking  th®  freight  on  ^1 
tho  mill;   3hippsd  from  tlrt©   country,   and  taking  such  propor- 
tion of  th9   total   freight  as  th«   quarts  of   milk  Includeti 
in   this  statement  b«ar  to  th«   total   qustrts  of  Tdlk  rs-- 
a&i^&d    in  Boston. 

Mr.   W5LI,IKa?0K.        I  s«s.      7hr*t   i©  all  right. 

Ooisiin.  SAfT^B.  Hov  la  yours,  Mr.  Wellington,  — 
on   the    sar!39  haeis? 

Mr.    WSLLI??OTOf?.        Y©B,    t'm   sam«  fcasie. 

Mr.    BAWKIIIS.        1  might  ge»iy,   again,    that  a  very 
fins  analysis  of   that  freight   ie  kept  by   th©  Hoods,   ?jid 
th&t    th»y  knew  exa^ctly   to  a  panny  juBt   how  much   it    is,   and 
I  b«liev8  Mr.   Pdrkins  had  a  littl®  diffictaty  in  eegrs- 
gatlng  it  in  tha  othar  e&ss.        Vis  apportioned  a  certain 
amo-ant  for  cream, 

Mr.    pgRKIUE.        Tee. 

Mr.    HAtKISS.        In  othsr  srorde,    it  wae  not   qiaite   bo 
closes  ae   this,   9Bp«oially  with   th«  analysis  iaad«  by    the 


t^^."^ 


•;  .  r5    fc.#'«R    ^1     ,  ^v; '>'-sQ>' '  •■■'•-' 


13 


HoodB   in  conndotiotJ  «ith   the   freight  yards. 

Mr.   ^RKIISS.        Well,    th-?  Whiting  Company's  wae  all 
in  one  account,   but   there  was  no  difficulty   izi  eeparating 
it. 

Mr.    WBLLISOTOS.        You  ha^/©   aj:    itara  hers   of  saiscal- 
laneouB,   under  the  head  "Oity  ?!xp«neeo*? 

Sir.    HAWKIJfS,        Yea.        ^ould  you  like    to  have    these? 

l£r.    ?r3LLIHlT0]?.        T«8. 

Mr,  HAfXIKS.  That  fniecallatndous,  of  coiirsa,  in 
a  proportion  of  th«  total  miaoellans'^us.  The  tosal  mis- 
callaneouB   le  eome thing  liK^--- 

Oomm.    SASnUR.      Wall,    tbars   *ir®   only    two  roigGgllaneoue 
it©tns, 

Wr.    HAWKIFS.        The   total  aiscallaceous  woyld  "be 
80K« thins  liit»  |230O.  Thie  rspreeents  a  proportion  cf 

that  total   itiiBC9ll&n9ou6.      I  cojr   give  you  tn«    total   mis- 
csllanaeus. 

Mr,    WBLLIf'TOK.        Whera    doss   the  "fc-alanc©   go,    under 
city  ^xpsnssB? 

Mr.    HA¥KIKS.        It  would  bs    chargeable    to    the  i^ilk 
not   inclxidsd   in   this  stataiasnt. 

Mr.    WSI.LIB1T0S,      What   is   ths  lEilk   that   -jakee   euch  a 
larg®   proportion  of   the    total?         You  ar»  putting  in  here 
only  slightly  mora   than  half  of  the   total. 

Mr.    HAtKIIIS.        Putting   in  about  14/23ds. 

Mr.    »1JM,IB3T08.      Yes. 

Mr.   HASEIM.        Thai,   ie  pretty  nearly  two   thirde, 
ian't   it?       I  can  give  you  the   total   quarts,    if  you  vould 
like   them.      The?*®   is  butt^nailk,    skisa  allk, — -- 


'.l''."i'T    A    * 


, -K:-      ■■I.:} i  ..(:,.-_ jfi^ 


ni.  :X'.::i:4 


u  i 


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^  i> 


iK*,-^^ 


19 


Mr.    OUSIvK.      r\Q  wsoitB   to   too*   *her9    ths   oth^r  ailk 
has  ^on«? 

Mr.   HAWKINS.        Btitterailk,    ekia  milk,    csrtlf  isd 
milk,   gr&fie  A  milk,   and   so  forth.      1 8  th&wt  clear? 

¥r.    WlLLIff3T0!?.      Yae,    that   is  cl&ar. 

Mr.    HAWKINS,        I  cars  give  you  the   total. 

Mr,   OUSIOK.      Out  Bids   of   fluid  aiilk  —    th%t    is  what 
you  !S9afH. 

Mr.    HAITKISB.        Y9s,    --  wotild   include   also   that 
87,CXH3  quart©  of  pints  sold  wholesale,   which  you  say  thar© 
ie  <|uit9  a  loss  en. 

Mr.   OUSIOK.      No,    it  wouldn't. 

.Mr.    HAfKIKS.        Y»e,    it  would. 

Mr.    ClfSIOK.    You  hav9n»t  ©nough  for   that.      Lat  ae 
ask  yea  a  question.        You  taliL  about  pints.  How  did 

you  gat   th«   averapa  selling  price  of  8,6  c«nts? 

Mr.      HA^KIRS.        Trow  rr.    Sil'bert,    cvsr   tha    'phon#. 

Mr.   OUSIOE.        Th%t  1b   the    klnfl  of  accounting  you 
}ie»r«  doii«? 

Mr.   BAfKIWg.        f%B  told  to   tak«    tM   pries  fixed 
"by  th®  -'!!osisi«aioR. 

mr.    0TJ8ICK.      And    is   that  what  you   took? 

Mr,    TiAWK;iHS.        I  was  told  to   take    the  prions  fisted 
fey  tha  Coiasissicn. 

Mr.    CUSIOK.    So   on9   si  so   hae   done   that. 

Mr.   BAfKIHS.        That   is  what   I  undarstcod   tha   gentle 
wan  from  Sr.  Wellington' e  cffiee   to  So, 

Hr,   COSIOK,        This  gantlaman  from  Mr.    Wellington's 
office  didn't  do   it,  and  so   I  don't  know  whyhe  should   tell 


*'^.- 


■!■      I 


.3'~ 


i,.  •■    "jO^-?';.i;     lie     -  v.; 


il  >:.rtTi    fe-tc 


■  a^c-.> 


'^..v^*   T'^j    bi-^-j 


,^«,:i:3-    :*:?'>;■;    <; 


.li'i  ■'^j- 


90 


you  to  do   it. 

Mr,    HAWKII'S.        I  don't,   sithsr. 

Mr.   OOSIOE,      ^uite  a  proportior.  of  pints  are   eold 
with  quarts,   at   tha   same  rats  ae  ths   quart  pric«,  vshich 
»culd  TC9    7-1/3  cents  where  your  quart  price    is  16   csnte. 
That  price    ie  fixe<S  "by  ths  CemjiiiBeion.        Pints  not  deliv- 
«r»d  with  QU4aur*t8  %rs    sold  at   S,5   cents.        The   proportion 
of  pints  eolcl  for  7,5  o^fnte  inet#eud  of  8.5  c«nts  is  con- 
eidsrable    la  all    the   rest  of  the  'busin^es,   and  I  aseuaa 
that   it   ia   so  with   th*  Hood  Company. 

}ir»   HAWKIfS,        Ani  you  say  you  know  just   th©    incora© 
that   coraes  froa  pints,    from  your  books? 

Mr,    OOSICK.      Y®R,    sir. 

Mr.   HAWKIBS.        I  know  you  don't,  because   I  osm 
tall  you  that— — 

Mr,    PISKISS.        W9  know  what  pints  ara    gold  at    quart 
pri09  tmu  wh«fct  ^t  plrife  price. 

Mr.    liAWKIHS.      Well,   w©  ware    told   to  g©t   the  Com- 
miesion'e  price,   mn&  called  up  Dr.    Ollljert.  Br.    Gilbert 

will    verify    that.  I   think,    that   I  cailsd  him  up   in 

regard  to   it. 
I  Mr.    CI'JSICK.      Well,    there  are    the   two  prices  on 

pints.      There    Is  th»  price  on  pints  delivered  with  quarts 

1 
at   the   auart  price,    7,5   cents,  i*r)d  the    price  on  pints  de- 

livera'5  ^3  pints,    S.S  cents,   and  if  your  proportion  of 

the    two  kinds  of  business  was   the   s^ttie  as   fch-i*t  of   the   Hood 

Ooap^iny,    it  would  m^e   a  loss  of   substantially  &  thousand 

dollars  on  your  324,000  pints. 


^^11. . 


^t.-cj  rr  »>  <N  ?■-   •  ;! 


It:-;?  it:      ,--jC 

«  >     ',  ■  -    - .  ;•  . 


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21 


Dr.    OILBSRT.        I  would  &ay  that    the  Co^rss lesion 
h%di  not  passed  on  that  officially  in  S^pttm^iar,   "but   it  was 
th»   price  of  the  doal*re  at    that   time, 

Mr.    CITSICJK.        It  ir-s,®   the  pried  trr^an  wa    took   it   isp 
at   th^   laet  hsaring. 

Ooiari.    SAW^-ISK.      W®11,  i^e  ha,v9  h»ard  yotir  conteTJtion 
<m  that.      CJc  ai^.aad. 

Mr.    nUSIOK.        T  aw   teaming  pints,    Mr.    H-awkins. 
inhay  raade  -us  dc   it.  I 

¥r.    WKLLIWaTOF.      Mr,    HawklBB,    tne    item  irndsr   the       | 

Y 

■J 

h«ad  of  d«?livery  oxpeTtee,    for  'bottles  ajid  cases,  what 
dr^ae  that   inclitde? 

Mi*.    HA?/KTSS.        That    ineludsra   tha   Jars.      Tb®   charge 
for  oas^e  is  in  ths   depreciation. 

Kr,    OIBIOK,       Yov  wa>r«  asted  what   Jteffla  yo«  IncltJdad 
fcr  "bottlas  and  cas^e  'jBdsp   the  head  cf  dsl ivory  expersse. 

Mr.  HAfKIWS.     And  T  told  you. 

Mr.    iTJSICK.        no.  You  told   ug  ??hat   wa»  not    in 

Mr,   ■'lAfXIII^.        Wall,  we  took  ths   chars?* s  for  "bot- 
tles;   total   cbargas  for  bottlse,    f^720.25. 

Mr.    OtJSICJK.        Yon   5»an,   y©u   took   tfi«   br-'ttle-s  pur- 

Mr.    BAWKOS.        lo,    the  iDOttles  put    int«  uee   during 
the  Btontto.     .,■■-■-'•;■■. 

Mr.    IfSIXIHSTOf.        Bottlae  piafc    ijsto   esrvics? 

Mr,    HA¥KI5S.        That  misht  ba    tha   way  &  lawyer  would 
do   it,   "biit  not  a«i  acco'intajrit, 

Mr.  OUSICH.    What  about  th*  casts? 


?^r.ssf    :'■'•■ 


■>X- 


I?    i54.'  ^^    -'  *  •' 


hi 


'JYi'-Kv     ,0 


•  r'j    ■^■;i';- 


fy    -■"'■<    c  *-rr"?   ^  i;<|  y.j^'j-'  •:■  -i  -*d<^     ,  • 


2B 


Mr.    HATOINS.        The  cas«s  ara    includsd  in  depre- 
cia,tion, 

Mr.   WSLLIHOTOf,        You  hava  no  oh^-ge  for  cases? 

Mr.    HAWKINS.        Except   th^t  s^*own  in  depracisition. 

Ooasa.    SAWYSIR.        Let  me  ask  you  a  quQetion,    Sr. 
Wtlllngton.       Have  y©u  fellowt-^,  the  "book  on    fch&t  and  put   io 
bottles  that  have  "besr.  put   into  use? 

Mr.    "iASTKISS,        Bottle B  put   into   aarvice. 

COffim.    SAWYSR.        Your  charge   th!a,t  month   is  $6,543, 
and  tfe*?lrs   is  $3,037.  S4,        You  put  ntor%    into   use   apparently 
that  month   than   they  did  --  that   Is,   if  both  a^caunte  ar« 
ri!?ht, 

Mr,    O^JSIOK.        Y-3S,    th*t   is   It.        One   of   thsm  must 
tee  iprong,    probaMy. 

Mr.    WXII.TS3?0"^,        I  would  like    to  ask  a  qus^.ticn 
on  tha   acccunting  charga  und-ar  tfcs  h^adino;,    *D9livsry  'Sx- 
pena« .  * 

Mr.    HAWKIKS.        that   do  you  want    to   know  about    that, 
Mr.    Wsllington? 

Mr.    flI.LIB^*OK.        DO'9s  that   include  all  your  account- 
ing for  delivery? 

Mr.    BAWKIKS.        All    the   acooiaiting  for  delivs»ry? 

Mr.    WKLLISaTOS.        Yss. 

Mr.   HAWKIKS.        ^e« ,   *h9n  you  say,   "all  your  accounting 
for  delivery,*   you  mean   tha   tia«   th®  driver   takes  tc  raak« 
up  hiu  aceounte,   too? 

Mr.    WF.LLIKa'rOS.        No. 

Comra.    SAWYSH.        It    ie  parf >ctly  plain,   hers. 

Mr,    HAWKINS.        W«ll,   Mr.   Vallington  asks   the 


"-    ..   -■<-!^  V.    > 


33 


question,   and   I  want   to   know  juet  what  ha  i7S.^n8. 

neam.   SAITYER.        This  says,   und»r  307,     accounting: 
•To   fchiB  8M3cour.t   shall  l>a  charg«d   tha  pay  of 

clerks  *nd  bookkeepers  engaged  directly  on  routes 

accounting,* 
Dl<3  you  do  any^tning  more   or  less? 

Mr.   KAtKINg.        yee,    sir,    it   Is  hare. 

CoHifli.    SAWYER.        r>ia  vow  do  anything  different,    Mr. 
t«llin^tcn? 

Mr.    frSlLIR"S?OW.        Ko,    eir.  Then  ths  next   item 

under  ■Delivery  ^penee*    is  the  miscellaneous   ifcea. 

Mr,   HAWKIHS.      Would  you  like   to  knov  all  about   those? 

Mr,   mU.im'TOn,     Yes. 

Mr,    HAfKISS.        That  nJscellaneoua  esqsense    includes s  a 
portion  of  your  ice  on  the    trucks,  on  the  route  wagons, 
and   eo  forth.        You  know,    the   route  y^^one  h&ve   to  have   ice 
on   their  wagons  to   keep  the  milk  cool.        I  don't  know 
whether  you  have   included   that  or  recognized   it. 

Mr.   WSLLIROTO^.        What  else    is   in  theref 

Mr.   RAfKISfS.        There   is  a  trucking  charge  fro^n  the 
plant   to   thx9  delivery  depot. 

Mr.    fSLI,IS3T0H,        Shouldn't   that  be   up  tmder   the 
country  expense? 

Mr.   HAfKIRS.        Wo,    that    is  a  delivery  charge. 

Mr,    WILLIRC-TO?!.        Aft?r   it    is  prooeesed? 

Mr.   HAWFIHS.        After  it    ie  proceeeed,   yes. 

Mr.   tSLLIHOTOR.      I  see.      Why  shouldn't   tnat  be  under 
•?eekia»  and  Trucks*? 

Mr,   HAfKIIfS.        Veil,    teaaa  and   trucke  ar-a   reprsaented 
by  the  actual   delivery  —   that   is,    aft^r   it  leaves   the 


».Jl- 


,  .ft-i!*!.*-    Hi 


.  :hy    q- 


84 


delivery  dtpot. 

Mr.   r«'I*LIS3?0K,        I   sae.     What  alee    is  In  there? 

Mr.    HAfKIES,        1^«n,    thsra   ie  th®  matter  of 
general   sxpeBse,      I  cssn  get  you   the   g-aneraO.   expsrsfes   ther^, 
$900.        Of  cciira®,    this   total  hsre  of  ovar  |4,000  repre sect e 
«  proportion  of  fch*   total  miscellaneous.     The    total  mis- 
oellaneoiaji   is   soMsthir^  like   16,000  odd,   whatever   it  is. 
I  oar*  give  you   that.        I  ^cyld  lik«   to   e^y   tixat  ws  hav«   th« 
detail  -all   her«.      That  g«r=®ral  «xp9ji»0  -of  f9SJ4   ie  repre- 
»dnt??td  Ijy     the    total.  chargae   to   each  of    ths   eight 

Isranchss  or   t»n  brajicnsus,      Ws  csr.  raffr   tc?  each  of    th9 
Btx9Qtu  hBr^   to  ehm  you  what   ti5»v  rS'prsjs^nt,    if  yo>a  wa«t. 

Mr.    irSIX.ISltON.        So. 

Mr,    liAWKIlS.        We  hs^va   th«  i»hole   thSng.      I  dars   e«^- , 
I  fe-*!   sore,    fchssy  <j«in  pr<Jdtuc«  vouch® r»  for  &11   of  fchtra. 

Mr.   '#lLLIM-:J?Ofe.      I  haven't  a,  doubt  of   it.        Than 
the  naxt  its®,  Loss  from  Bstd  Bsbte. 

Hr.    HAifKIKS,        I  ^oulu  lii:9    to   saj  ®oaa thing  about 
that.        That  aoean't  r^preeent    tn&   Iosb  froa  bad  <30bt8 
that   th*y  sho«-  <m  fch«ir  books.        Thar®   Beaaj^a   to  be,    in 
ny  ^Btiraafcion,    an  unuetaal   charge  for  bad  <2*bte  during 
that  aoTttii.      I    think   it   reprssentad   ecme thing  like   $8,000 
or  $9,000,   and  I   thought   it  wa,®  cjt  cf  all   propor-tion,    and 
I   took  A  very  jaucn  iwavier  charge    th^ji  should    ordinarily 
accrtaS'   on  route   s^l©?,.      I   took  on«  per  cant,    on  ealee,    total 
Bi%l«s.        That  ordini*rily  ishould   be   .sK-r*   thfAn  would  be 
charged   in.        According   to    tha  ^xperianc©    I  have  had,    it 
shouldn't   b®   over  a  half  a  par  cent. 


ify 


ij^io^ 


i        -  ■'  ■ 


V  .:d 


*.-;o   .s^-'!>3    T 


S5 


Ofmn,    SAW^B.        Jr.  othar  irortSs,    inetesul  of   tatking 
what   thair  liet   of  bad  dabts  actually  ehowe,   you  to«k 
B-raae thing  yo-a   thotij^ht  wa&  propsr? 

Mr.   R.WKIHS.        The  less  frora  "bad  d'^bts  act-aally 
charged   In  SeptSTsbssr  was  net   th©  actual  loes   in  Saptsmljar, 
7h®y  had  charged   in   th«ir  total  account   eossethinf  like 
$8,000  or  $9,000  for  t^ad  debts.        That  didcU   repr&ssnt 
loEses  In  S©pteF3'b%r,  "b-ut   locsss  that  hsw?  accrued   in  prior 
SBORthe,   and  I  want   ov"»p  th®  fcoolt,   sj^d  the   avsrafre  Iobbqs 
8ho*sd   abcx:!t  •O'ns   per   c<^nt.      So   T    took  cr^s   jj^tr   c'S'nt.    and 
charged   that.      ?h#r9  wciildn't  l3«   any  ftqiiity    in  charging 
leeeee  for  a  cf  months  int«i  <ms   month*©  cost. 

ft 

Ooaffl.   SAffV^H.        For  how  long  a  perln*?.  do  yoti  take 
that   eharga   for  "bad  d©bt»? 

Ur,   HAWKt??S.        I  went  ov^r  the   Tjooks   f'^r  sight 
tenths.        T  want   ovs-r   thsti  casually,    didi*t  figur®    it  out, 
over  sey«n  or  sight  months, 

Oemia.    SAtTSR.        ^sd  apportioned  one    seventh  or 
©ighth  of   it?  ■"'•■• 

Mr.    ^'AWKIMS,        Yes,    sir.  -'    >    ' 


r.'^n^^yrf^ 


;'■.■•■■  i  ■^•^'■^q::'- 


L  I  I 

Ooasffilss loner   3AWy^:!??.     Eo?*  did  you  treat   it,  Mr.   Wslllngt::n? 

Mr.  WBLLISOTON.      We  took   wbat    a'ae   actually   ofcargsd  off  that 
sonth. . 

CojEJBi  SB  loner   SAWYER.     How  did  It  coapare    ./1th  tks  avarage 
aatouct  ohargad? 

Mr.   WSLLTSGTOS.     It   le  rather  lo«r. 

Mr.   HAWKTSS.      What   pepcentag©  of  the  sal©   Is  that? 

Mr.   WSLLTHGTON.     Ealf  cf   one  percent,    a  littls  l^se. 

Mr.  KA^TNS.     ^ell,    ss  oha?ged  ens  psroent.. 

Sir,    WgLLTS(3T0li.      In  dclng  it   in   that    ^-ay  ycu  msds  the  eaase 
probabla  ountry  oharge  for  feasily,   shore   snd  hotel? 

Mr.  EAmiNS.     Yes,    sir.. 

Mr.   WgLLIKGTOS.     Wa  shcured  It   as   It   ooctjrred,    and  that   is 
tfcs    ^sy   ?^e  imdersto  d  the  CcEaiseion   i.aDted  it.. 
Mr.   OUSiaX.     That   ie   what    it  ssys.. 

OaaaElssionar   S/WYSE.      Yes, -"lessee   fvm  bad  debts  ehsll  bs 
charged  to  the  several   olasses  of  trade    ae   thsy   ar§   Inourrsd,? 
Q^h   ahead,. 

Mr.  KAWKTHS.     T   nevwr  eaw  any    record  of  their  Cfispany  that 
shc'^sd  that.     X  hop©  you  know  just    .?hat  y  u  less  en   ©aoh   class 
of  trada,.   That    le  a  very  fine  piece  of  snalytlc^l  arork. .    I  fencar 
t  h  e  H  0  ods  d  on '  t  kn  c  ^ . 

Mr.    P'-HSISS.      Kew  lE^iofe  thsy      Icse  on   indlvidTial    cuetcjrere? 

Mr.   EAMT^S?     !Jc,  nor  hc-sr  aeuoh   le  lost   on  Boylstoc  St.    ii^r 
Washington  St.. 

Ceaffilsslcnsr  SAWYER.     That    Is    aelds   f r on?  the  q-J9sti->n.. 

Mr.   'A1?LLT^T0N.     On  the  per  quart   of  j  er   r-lnt,   on  tha  rsirt 
8h3'9*,  Mr.   i^v^cioK  |f>»8  taken  V3p  the  point   In   regard  to   tha  8.5 
o^nts  per   i>lnt  «nd  7,5   oenta  per   jint,. 


i 


LX^i 


ra 


^    :i     -  :■• . 


'W  ^^^ 


Mr.    KA19ItTJ.S.     Ye«. 

Mr.   WELLINGTON.      Pcaslbl^  you  or  Mr.   Mlllstt   can   tell   U8 
what   the   faip  average  would  be  on   the  3.5   oente   at   *hloh  plrtc 
alone   are   s-ld  or   the  7.5   cente    at    uhiob     tlnte   are   sold   v/lth 
quapte, . 

Mp.    F.AWXTN3.      I    cennot   tell  yu   that. 

Mr.   MILLET.      And  T    oann  t   tell  yru  that.      T   don't   lcno«r  the 
ppopontlon  of  the  pln^e   Bcld    .vlth  quarte  io.      We  have  no   peocpd 
of  that.. 

Oiia^xtlealonep  S/WYEF.      Before    »9  get  do«i   to   that,   I    *ant   to 
aalc  you  questlcne,   both  of  y.^u.     Mr.    Wellington,   taking  your 
fixed   ohargsa,    Int  y-sst   on   Inreetirent,    17,192.91,   that    la   Intep- 
eat    at    *hat   raiet 

Mp.   WRLLTNGTON..    eix  p&poent.. 

CJ^>a!rl9ff^'-»op  S^:mm,.    On    *'hat?' 

Mr.   WgLLTMTOH.     On   the    lnveotaj»nt   devcted  tc   whole  asl Ik. 

Cca-rrleeion^  SAWgR.     And  does  it    Include   inv.et^ent   In 
r  ou  tea? 

Mr.   WELLISGTOH.     Surely. 

acfflaleelcner   SAV[m..    The   whcls   inv-ct^snt? 

Mr.    .ELLTNGTOH.      The  pPopoPtlonel    ln»e«t^ent  dev  te.  to 

b.o,u.,  ,.u  ,.,  not   .._,ppo.M  to  »„.,  ,,,„   ,,,,  „,,,    ,„„et,,„, 
1...    K...  M...  E,,kir,.,  ^cur   l„t=r«t    ~n   ln„«.«,t   .„.  .1.0  on 
the  eitouot  «   th9  r.te  of  .li  f,ra.„tt' 
Kr.  KAUKTBS.     lea,  .ip, 

Oo3,u.,.ner  SA'^^,.     o„  ti,.  ,«„«t   ,„„.,.,  ,„  .,,„  ^,^^, 
«..  K,-«I.S.     T...    e.P.    .„,,t  ,Me.        t  .oul*  Uk.  to  ,.„ 


-r^r  vit'fJ'  'i' 


-v 


^ 


179 


this   in  oowaactlon   jrltb  that.      At  a  very   late  hour  on  Saturday, 
I   tblnk   it   wnB,   OP  P.pld?iy,   a  gsntlsinn  troa  Sir.  Wellingtcn's 
offloe  '2all'?4  »*  up  snd  sail  the  Interest  co   investir^Tsts  In  ths 
ooYintry   shruld  b©  apjopticned   flret   betiy«en  aellk   scd   oreasa,    "Jnd 
then  the  total   ttv  allk  sho'uld  be  obarffsd  to  ths  sales  teec®  on 
ths  baels  that  ths  ooxjrntry  wa8«--*±st   \f/&e  that,   Mr.  Welllcgtc^n? 
Tfeat   is  v.'feat  T   did,    snyho*-.      Ls^t   thase  tell    it    ,      Tbey  knos'  g«crg 
about  It  then  I  dc,. 

Mr.   WtLUKGTOK.     That   tfcs  oountry  iDvsstasert   ffas  aade   for 
ths  purpose  ot  piirsfeasing  ntllk   and   cire^c   end   that    tBs   interest 
on  tbat   InvestBEsnt   ■was  a   fair  charge   against  th^  a?llk   and   3rs^B 
•lellvefed,    and  that  tfce  dipeot  sountpy  tjxpenees  *SP9  divided   a© 
bs-t^s^B  ths  ffillk  tli&t   oaa3-e  to  Soston  and  the  milk,  tteat   i?as  need 
otfcftr'wlee,   but  thst  tfce  fls^d  charges  in  the  ooiaitry  bsloagsd'  to 
tfc©  IE  I  Ik  tfcat  onste  tc  Bv^ston. .    Ts  th^t   claar? 

Mr.   EAWRTNS.     Wfeethsr  sold   a/s   v?hols  ^llk   or   net? 

Mr,   WfLLTNSTOS ,      Because   th^?   sripplue  dees  not  rsc^jpe  tfee 
dealers  ftp  the   Interest  on  tfcelr  aountr-y   Investajent,   as  t^©  al- 
loaranoes  jB.isde  ?*nd  deducted  free  ths  fer'aseT   oo^rers  a  ceptaln   spssr*. 
Jfio  dsduotlcn,   dc©s  not  ocver  fixsd  cli;5rgi9e,    Intereet,    Ineurar-C® 
and  ds|>peclatlon  dsdwotlons,     Tiispsfors,  these   fl5ee^.  oteargee  auet 
in   total     s-"^   iRto   the  cost   c-f  jsilk   sold..    Is   that   clsap? 

OfcJEffiissicnep  S^WYKP.,    l?®ll,    ^-e  havs   it   en  the  raeopd. 

MP.   EAfKINS.      T    did  it   the   saa;©   s-ay,   Mp.   SsA-yer'. 

Mpsieslcnep  SAWYER.  New,  go  ahsad.  ¥/a  have  that  on  the 
pecord,  and  X  hops  ;/s  can  in^,k«  it  out.  Now,  you  oan  /?c  on  ts 
ynup   pints, 

MP.  WSLLIKOTON.  Spaaking  eboiit  family  pints,  if  it  Aero 
possible   it  wculd  bs  interesting 


] 


i;-  ^ 


^ti>    '. 


er    ...^I': 


.'J>    ,-":' 


x^ 


poaalbls   It   *'ould  ha   Intepaating  tr;  knc*   nhat   the  real   result   cf 
th9  milk   s;-lfl   in  "jlrts   la-tbat    le,  <istsr-i2ln«  tfcs  real    averafje 
aellitjg  pT'ises.    -^e  the  flgtjree   fap  ths  V7hltlEfi,'  Otieppxii'ss  ?j^d  the 
Alden  Odmp&nj    bcth   afccw  i  Icee   on  aellk  sold  in  pint  bcttlea  f'bf 
faiEllles.- 

0i.'EnJla8!cner  S/Jwygp..    Bvt  not   .'^fcolseal©? 

Mp.   WSLLTNGTCN.     Set    wholesale, 

Mp.   KawSilns,     What   v/as  the   lose?' 

Kr.   '^LLIKGfCN ,     It  W2S    .795,    slfflost   eight   tenths  of  a  sent. 

Mr.   K^mTN'S.      That   js,    eight  si  lis? 

Mp.   WKLLTSGTOH.      Pop   pint,   yoB.. 

Mr.   EAWKTliS.      A   icse? 

Mff ,  .'tVSLLI!3GT0K,      Yee.      Tn  dividing  your   jprcoessing   acst  be- 
tween fajsily,   store   imd  cans,  y-u  have   a  sl'ghtly  hlghsr   scet 
per  i^&rt  for  asc,- 

Mr.   K.smTBS.     Yes,    esn. 

Mp.   WSLLTKtlTOK.     And    ours  t.s   qcnsl^erably   less.. 

Mp,  EAWgTiiS.     Wel^  t   triad  to  get   all  ths  lafopasttlon  poe- 
sbkle.   I    ;?ould  like   to   sa^-   in   that   oonn^otlcn  that   it   eays  h-ars, 
whepe   it    is   ispoaibls  or   iajpsaotioil   tc   ssgpsgat©  sharges   "thsy 
sh-jyl^  bs  apportlonsd  and  the  baoie  of  apportlotjs«nt    ladioatsd,'* 
T   think  I  h"4  thr©*  or   fcup  v.*3P,v   interesting  eessions    vlth  Mr. 
Pspkm©  on  that  point,    and  I  tp*3l  to   apporticn  that   a«  nearly 
aepposeibls  on  the  Inforisation  X  got  from  hla.     Tf  yoa  arotild  like 
tc  knoa?  Just  how  I   did  that,  I   vrc-uld  be  Ttry  glad  to  tell  ycu 
Just   v/fcat   is   in  there.      I    f/lll   say   thie,   that   eoms  of  these 
charges    ssps   a pvcfl Ironed  on  si  ppaetioal  basis.     Where   a  can  tcok 
the  Gmm&  proportion  aeaa  O'jes,   of  !3:.upe'5  the  can  nst -ipally  took 
a   proportionately  higher?   oh?i-*ge,      Th.st    Is,    of  ccupse,   you  have 


'm  ^i\< 


.,-.^    _.. 


30 


«l.ght,    HTii  one-half   T'**?t9    In  the  oan  and  t?iSlv«  in  thJ  3»jb3.. 
That   is   a  flgtips   that   Intsrssts  ana.      Of  c'-urss,  I  krtoj?  it   is  jsb- 
solutel.7   -^rong,   but   tfcat   le  the  bsais  on    i?l"l3jh  T   b--,5   to  SfO    It. 

Mr.  Wl?tl,INGTO?J.  How,  it  J?  going  to  ba  i-oss^bld  for*  j-.;u  to 
fflv-s  vje  n.  dstnll  oost  for  dellTSPy  sxpans^^e,  crxospt  jyst  tts  one 
total? 

Mr.   E.*WETSS.     T    s>«ld   llks  to  knc-if  bo^-  ^-u  d5.d  t.nat,      If  I 
can  &ttk.  yot3  .t   question  en   that. 
Mr.   aUSTCK.     Sure. 

Mr.  KA\^TSS.        That   is  a  veri-    l.ntsresting   point   '.vttb  ros.. 

Mr.   '^LLTHCTON.     Taking  the  per   rlnt   snd  p^r   q^jart   s>!?et, 
imdsr   the  he-^sJIci?  "total  d  si  T  vary  eTpenses,"  thf  it  ess   e?<5  shcvm 
In    :ml^'  tis^o  groups,    the  direct  obarges   and  t.fce    flxs4  obsrcss. 

C'^isst* '■^1'^!?»'r   BAWYVUrf t     Yoe,. 

Mp.  ^^LLTSuTOS .  You  show  j'oiir  dollars  and  csnte,  dslivsry 
sxpsKses,  find  you  fcucd  th^t  it  ras  not  p<>6slble  tn  divide  that 
dcll^rc    sRd  cent©? 

Mr,  EAWTSS.  Ret  en  tfes  basis  of  ©y  api  orticnssnt,  and  X 
will  tell  y^-13  he?;  I  undsretDcd  Mr.  Parkins  ?m8  ccing  to  appor- 
tion  It,   and  than  bow  fee  ild  it    and  boi?  '«??  did  It. 

Mr.   ?;fLLTHOTOH.     Go   abead. 

Mr.   EAmiSS.     W©  found  the  total  units  c.f  delivery  on   each 
of  tbe  flvs  different  ^leeaee-pure  family,   arixed  family,   pur© 
oan,    pure  bottle   and  aissd  bottle,    nnd   aftsr    ss   found   cut   tbs 
total  ^stjits  wbloh  wars   lellver'fd,   bctb  a? Ik    ?nd  opeaa. 


•",   i? 


r..        "i    . 


i  if  ■^:i    .\'f'y. 


H-.    *-S     ■        '-.  -1  ■ 


'"-f; 


182 


31 


wholeealur  and  retail,   ve   first  took  th?  charge  for  t'«^aae 
and    trrtcKs  and  apportlcnad   that  charge    to  each  of    ths   dif- 
ferent slaaaes  of  roates,   on   th9  basis  of  horse  days 
in  the   petit*.      ThL^t  waa  on^   of    the  "basos  cf  lh9  distribu- 
tion in  t^ams  and   trucks.      Th^r,  «®  too'k   she   latbor  ch^^u-ge 
and  app«?Ftion*td  that   on   the  mim'b^r  af  routes   in  ■saoh  class 
of  iellvsry,   and  the   r<98t   of   it  *a  apportioned  on  a  unit 
basis,   "shSch  ie  the  n'.raib9r  of  unitsa  of  delivary. 

Mr.  r?!LLIl«0?CK.   Tha  pcint  basis? 

Mr.    HAf3fK.IffS.        Yes,    the   point  basis.        f^o«,    after 
wa   got   that  we   found    that    there  ^%&  a  certain  ctiarge   for 
teams  and    trucks  to  pur^   fa?n:lly,    of  l-a.bi;>r   fee  pure   fansily, 
of  miBC«ll<^eci5B  to  pure    family,    for  tha    total  unite  of 
dSelivery  on  each  of   thcee   claeess  of   rcutss.        fhsn  wo  gofe 
th!9   tmit  cost  of  delivery  psr  tmit  of  deXivery,   ■«©    took 
the   ntanbsr  of  -jnlts  of  delivery  in   fa^nily   qii&rts,    for    in- 
stance,   and  ws   took  th*  weighEsd  average    coat  of   thos«   units 
on    the    two  differant   classes  of  routes  which  d^livarsd 
them.      In  othsr  worete,    of  th©   1,463,056  quarts  delivered 
there  was  747,000  and   ssome   odd  delivered  on  mlxsd  faunily 
and   706,000  land   some   odd   delivered  on  pure   fanily,    aiid  «& 
took  th$  weighted  average  unit  cost   on   those  two  different 
cl&ssas  of  ro-ates,   —   unit   of  p-ars  milk    .034257,    roixed 
f^isiily  unit  cost  por  pint   of  delivery,    .0S492,   ^xi6,   th« 
W9ight»d  average  was   .034619.      How,    how  you  arai    going   to 
take    the   charga   for   toams,    trucks  and  bottles  h«re,   uaing 
that  weighted  «,v^raf?9,    is  a  little   problenj   in  ra-Uheatitlcs 
tlxifct   I  didn't  go   into.      Probably  ycu  havia   figured    it   out. 


■■■•'■'^         y  «■ 


-■-  i   '  -S--''^ 


XOO.J 


^ 


Mr.    P'-TRKIKS.        W®  went  aroand   tim   tv9&    thB   o6hsr 
way,   th^t   is  all. 

Mr,    HAWKTKS.        Ife  would    £sa;s   a  tr^B:!endo^ls  sg^ioutit 
of   tr-ivsling  to  get   the   labor  char??©  aft'sr  ^ettiiij^   tha 
weighted  average,    and   it  wotJld   raean  forty-fehres   difftr^nt 
Classes  cf  prodisots  delivered  ^id  I  don't  know  how   msa-.y 
thousar.d  oalculatione  made    to  get   it  sxactly  a»  you  's  an  tad 
it  on  th®  "basie  of  cistri'bution   that  Mr.   Perkdlne  sugijsetad. 

Mr,    WSLLIHl?0?n        You  didn't   djvid®   your  t©a.'??s  and 
laTDor   separately,   but  add*fi   t-'aam.B,   labor,   'bottles  &vA 
«v-^ry thing   tog*(th5r,    and  divided   th©    total    ocet  on  weighted 
average,    rather  than  taKing  each   iteia? 

Mr.    HAWKIWS.        I   took   tho    total    coat  for  each  claBS 
cf  routs  and  got    ths  w-slghted  avera.>:9,   --   total  tmit   cost 
per  'jnit  of  d«liv^ry  on  eaujh  olass  of  rents. 

Mr.    fi:iJ.INlTO?*\      Why  coultln't  you  have   added  all 
your  tssame.  and   trucks  and   all   f«nilv-  trade    to^ethar? 

Mr.    'HAfKIMS,        f«   didn't  hav®    tli-s   ocet    cf  nil    faiE-ily 
trad®,     fe   atpporti<>ned  th*   coet   of   tssyss  .*.tid   ?;r''j.ckB  to 
«ach  class  of  rout*^,   firat.        Tou  ^muTif    caks    ths  proportion 
of   t^ams  and    trucks  which  wotild  appl;/   to  the   family  trucks, 
and  apply  that   to  ©ach  class  of  product  delivered?     If 
that   is  what  you  jaean,    to  coma   at    that  you  understand    th&t 
yoti  would  hav®   to  take-«- 

Mr,    FIESI'^S.        Sot  !2tach  distinct   olaes  of  product, 
"tint  grouping   th^m  "b^for^  you  begin   tteit  oparation.      Th^t   ie 
%h9    idsfist, 

CoOTi.    BArnS.        How  rt^ny  of   tha^sa   dlffsr^neae 
ha.V9  you  got   to    thresh  out? 


t.-^\ 


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■i^:.-'\"    ri  .m    ■•■■'•'j^<.     ■>- 


isOO     o. 


•  ■  :?•■ 


'  ■-«':  -=-■.';     >  !   ^i 


■^5 


0,;   '^       'C 


.; .:  3    .^i■;;•>^■ 


33 


Mr.   WSLLII91T0H.        That  anda  it,    I   think.        There  is 
thfs   atisstlon  of   th«  bad  d9bt6  thers   to  b©    eak®n  up.      That 
©nda  th©   t»c   ehests. 

f/OsBK.        Is   ther*9   anythicg  oc   th«   other  shsst? 
Tt   is  gtttins  lat«,    no^r, 

Mr.    WELLIK-3T0S.        we  ax-e   through  —  unlaee  you 
want   to  aek  scm®  quest  ions,   ?ir.    Hawkins. 

Mr.    HAtXItfS.        I  havsn»t  ajjythlng   to  ask,   havsnH 
seen  your  report. 

[The  hearing  was  adjcumsd   to   Tu«6<lay,    Xmc&s&hsr 
31,   191-S,      at  10.30  c'clook  a.   m.  1 


las 


UooEi  427,    State  Houss^   Boston, 

Tuesday,  Decembar  31,   1318. 


Presint:   Commiosionsra  Morris,   Sawyer,   Joz*dan  ana  Bird. 
Commission ir  O'Hara  and  Ohairmaa  Allen  arrived  during  the 
eourse-  or   the-   Iiearing,      Oommission*?r  MOHHIS  presiding. 


Ooamiesioner  mWl^,   in  calling  th&  haaring  to  order  at 
11  a.m.,    spoke  as  follows? 

Qentl-imen,   ws  want   to   gat  right  down   to  "ousin^sss  and  gat 
through  this  hearing,    if  poaaibl.:^,    tiiis  asorning.     ^ow,   p^rh&ps 
nanv  oi'  you  saw  in  tha  evening  and  morning  papers   an  Itam  from 
Washinftton  h'^^isded,   "Trad©  Competition  !?cfsuaad  Jariuary  1;    con- 
certed prio^  fixin*  will  be  prosacut^d."      In   til's  a&sana-^  of 
anything  further  from  Washington  i^a  would  hav^a  probably   tak&n 
our  hats  and  gon-a  homa   thia  morning;   but   .va  havcs  cojfamuaicatiid 
with  Washington.      Th&f  iiavt--  before  tham  the  agrs«a-ejnt  «hich. 
was  sn tared  into   in  Hovember,    and  our  orders   ara    to  fix  pricws 
in  faim-3ss-   to  everybody  und^r   that  agrssm^nt.     So   that  ws  are 
here  for  three  sjontiis.      Do  -^^^  are  h.#re  instead  of   travailing 
towards  home   this  ^orniris^;* 

Fov?,  last  night  wa  ivars   considsring   th©  plijis  of  iir. 
Es^;skins,aEd  that  of  B,  Whiting  <^-  Soas  sid©  tip  by  3cov9li 
Waliington  ?-  Company.     Is   there  anything  further  to  ba    aaid  in 
refarenee  to    tiniBQ  f  igur-ss? 

Mr.   OUSIOK.     Do  you  isean,   as  a  final   ot^teiaent? 

Corom.   M015BIS.     As  a  final  statemont.     Or  any  critieisfli, 
any  argxaisnt  of  counsel  or  parties? 

i#r.   aUSIOj:*       You  h:ive  net  got   the  Aldsn  figursis? 

COBBB*   M01?^Ic»     No;    ?.e  'i^ould  like    those. 

Mr.   aUSI'^K.     Mr.  dhiirarjn,    I   jbj  just  going   to  eoaua-nt  for 


1 


186 

a  moimnt  on  tii®  cost  account  submitted  by  the  wliiting  concerns, 

and  the  cost  account  furnisiiaji  by  Mr.  Hawicins  of  the  K,   P. 
Hood  ^  Sons   conc«m.      In  viaw  of   ths   f  3,ct  that   the   tlwB   is 
iifflited  on    this  hsartn^  I   am  siaipii'  going  to   call  your  atten- 
tion to  cortain  atmoiraal  diffarencss  which  I   do  not  think  can 

bs   worked  out  at  thio  tim^^  una^r   tha  present  conditione,    xnd  Xn 
anything  I   aa^  1  do  not  fa;; an  any  orltlelsiB  ispon  isithc^r  of   ths 
accsoynts.        But  I  daaira  to  cxLl  it   to  your  attention. 

Ooiam»  WJ^JS*     I   think  tli&  'Joajmip?3ion  is  fissiliar  %ith  the 
l.irg©  itaras  of  diffardnca  hora.,     Whll<j  I   dii  not  hear   tha  dis- 
cussion ysstarday  rix'tomoont   I  v-orkad  with  Mr.  Sa\*y?ir  last 
avanin^  and  wa  want  ov^r  those,     'Tow,   ^hat  «^3cplanation  ha\re 
you  got,   withoiit  calling  attar>tion  particiaiariy  to   th?i   differ- 
ent it.ims?     liava  you   jot  any  aspianation?     Or,  iiovsi  '^'ouid  you 
consxaar  thss  Ooiaraifjsion  ought   to  traat   those  accounts? 

Blr»  CUSICK.       On   tiia  latt^sr  oroposition  I  dasirs   to  b# 
heard,-  as    to  how  tij.a  Go^nission  sr^ould   tr^at  tiios^  — - 

Cojum*  a02?I3.       That  is  ?rhit  wd  want   to  h@ar  froasE  you. 

Mr.   OySICJ".        I  beli3Y£   that  thB  aoiainission  should,   and  I 
reiuss't  that   ths   Ooasr.is^ion  request  both  partiiss   to  fiXts  the 
itema  0i  ths  boolc  antriss  "upon  whl(±i  t^hasa  r*3p-JCtivQ  iicaounts 
Wi3r«  ailocated.     Thoss   iccoimts   that  I  r'.jf.;jr  to  aro   th-.?  follow- 
ing: TP.@£0rr±niZ  to    "Jic^   statisssant   31"  whols  aiiii:  operations   of 
B.   ?.  Hood  -I:  -Sons,   Diotributors,   ths  i'irat  pagts,    xid  also  r>3- 
farring  to    the  statenisnt  of  &hei?s  axilk  oparations  in   th® 
3on&3lldatad  ¥Viiting  Ooncsm,   I  r^iusat   that  guch  data  bd 
furnished   tjj©  ToiKnisoion  in  the   icsounts  indicatad  as  3ity 
Ixpi^ne-s  anj-.,vr  Criwntry  ils p«jnsc- ;  labor  und-sr  ?ity  Sxpanece; 
refrigsration  undwr  Oity  Expanse©;   bottlss  and  cases  under  Un- 
livery SKpkmBQ&  and  accounting  uncl-jr  Dslivsry  5xp=ns=8,   and 
I  b^iiave   that  ths-t  i»;ili  ehc*   ths   rtjlativa  b^arinr  of    tha 


.  ■  "X  ■;  . 


187 

depraoiation  account  on  the  UsssicinB  Stateai^nt  of  Whole  Milk 

Operations . 

OoBiia.  M0E3IS.     your  first  itaa  of  City  Sxpense,-  you  lEt^an, 
UBder  Oountry  i::xpen8€,    the  $6,532.09,   wiiich  you  find  in  J). 
Whiting  &  Sons'    account? 

Mr.    QU3iaii.        Yes. 

Oomsa*  isQBlUS.      And   tlie   SJae,   |l,7Sf^.46   in  the;  JBasifii.ins ' 
account? 

Mr,   aUSiaK.        YeB» 

Qomra.  MOS'HIS.      "Riat.  was  not  discussed  yesterday,  was  it? 

5lr,   GUSIGK.     Yes,    it  v?as  discvssed.      Tiriiitis,    it  wag   dis- 
cussed in  a  f-fay.  i 

Goaati.   MOR'US.     Sail,  what  about  the   ica?     That  wag  discussed 
considerably,    ica  r-ifrig':iriit.ion,   yeeterday?    , 


Mr.   Ct^PIOK,      I   have  already  referred   to    that. 

Ooam,  M)HT?IS.     You  hava  rsferrad   to  refrigeration  under 
eity  expenses,   but  you  did  not  indieats  ice  undar  country  ex- 
pensas. 

ar»  Ou!3IOE.     Vjeii,    if  you  d^ssire  perhaps  it  '«ould  fos    bet- 
ter to  put  In  is^  also  under  country  sxpsfnssa.       Tha  difference 

much 
thar©  is  not  of  V:;ry  iraportanca,    and    tiiat  ie    tiie  reason  I   did 

not.     But  perhu,ps   the  two  accounts  say  a-3    conn=5ct3d.     Also  a 
afcatement   of  sjise-^ixaneoas  expenses.      By    that   I    io  not  nisn 
every  detail  of   that  aiscoilaaieous  expanse ;    I   simply  ia«an  thd 
groups  of  expanse   that   are   included  in  the  miscallansous.      You 
undwr stand  ons  group  of  |900  in  on®  eljnsent  of  expents  hare 
vaa  cotapogud  of  19  different  items.     Now,   I   do  not  cars  anything 
about    the   itdfflg.      That   group  is  a  particulior  group,   so  that  if 
thsy   eubfflit  it   to    the  Ooociisoion  as  a  ^roup  it  will  be  euffi- 
Cisint.      Tn.^   only  purpose   of    tiia    thing  i3   to  qqq  who  is  right 


■  3  .1. 


.•j5a^w't"'r.c> 


■■-.  ■■:  \     .,^ 


fiO    ■'.% 


188 

and  who  i?  wrong.     I   undt?ratanci  thsss  figurea  ar«  figures 

actually   taken  froa  the  booJts  -and  are  allocated   to  account  for 

in 
tha  »iiole  milk  optirations,    and  it  may  be   that  allocation  that 

th5  uiffarojTias  is  found.      I   call  your  attention  again  to    the 

statement  of  »-hole  miUc  costs,  H.   P.  Kood  S:  Sons,   distributora,- 

what  h-i8  b«sa  rsferr^d  to    -ts   tho  unit  coats  on  pago  2,   and  call 

your  attention  to   the  av9r&..2S  aeilinij  pric©  of  pints  as   «085« 

aorom.  MOB"^IS.     Well,    that  wae  pr<stty  oarsfuiiy  explained 
yastarday. 

Mr,  CHJSICF:.       Yes;   but  it  &111  mik<?  some  difference   in  the 
amoxmt  of  pi^fit  and  loss  if  it  is  a  fact  that   th©  pints  ara 
selling  at   the  loes   that    the  other  oosnpani&a  think  they  ar<s,and 
if   as  a  fact   tJ,\is    caULciuation  cannot  be  taken  as   accurate   if 
it  is  admitted   that    the    avar^ige  selling  price  of  pints  *as  not 
,G55;    therefore,   these  figur-^g   cannot  b©  taiien  as  accvirate, 

I  desire   to  druiw  your  iitt:;ntion  also  to   this  fact,-  that 
tlife'  volinae  or  silk  on   rhat   Bixsts  pags   is   within  1S§,000   luarts 
of    the  entire  volume  submitted  to  tha  OoaKiission  whcsn  ail  buai- 
ni;s3  of   tiia  K.   P.  Hood  S?  Sons  was  concerned  at    ths  last    tis^, 

0OI5M,   SAWfm*     rmat  fisur-a  a^z&ln?     135,000  quarts? 

Mr,  CUSIOJC.      -"Bxat   is  a  rough  figure,   Mr.  Sawyer;   but  if 
you  will  takiS    the  figure  which  was   of  farad  as  thJ;   an  tire  busi- 
neee  for  H.   Jr.  Hood  *  Bons,    and   then   take   tha  voli^e  allocated 
to  purely  Breton  districts,    it  does  not   seaa  as  if   th-ira   is 
stifficiant  difference  toBz^^^n  tJios©   t-»o;   but    t>h'5i*e  aay  be.      I 
do  not   criticias  it,   but  it  is  a  thing  wall  <worth  lookins  into, 
for  this  roaaon,-   that    if   this  yolucss  is  larger   than  it  should 
I  be  it  raakea  a  diff^^jr^nce  in   tho  laiit  costs.     And  I  alGO   direct 
your  attention  to   the   toted  delivery  expense  on   the  sa-as  sh^set. 

Qoiam,  M0r?Hl3.        Page  2? 

Mr*  CU3I0K.       On  page  2.       In  tha  sum  total  of   those 


l.^ 


»"*•.-•'• 


189 


various  itoais  so  submittafd  instead  of   the  items  as  reiulrM  by 
the  book. 

Now,    in  connection  with  this  r^^iuest,   I  offt»r  also,   for 
what  it  may  ba  worth,    tha  coabinad  coat  ahaeta   of    the  Alden 
Brothers  Company  for  Saptambar,   October  and  Hovarabar  —  or,   for 
Septeaber,    in  any  event,-  the  completed  sheet  for  Septeaber, 
for   this  purpose:    that    tha  volume  of   tliw  Alden  Brothers,    and 
dspscially  tha  refrigeration,   rather  indicates  that  possibly 
thare  may  be  sola's  raistaka  on  the  Hood  ohoots  on  rafrigsration, 
as   the  dollars  anci  c-nts  cnarged  for  refrigeration  in  the  Aldan 
Brothsra   COiapany's  aosount,   consiuusring  Hiq  voltira^?  —  which  la 
about  ona -fifth  of   the  ^feliiting  volume   —  checks  up  substantial- 
ly v/ith  our  cost.     Both  of   them  aay  bs  ?/rong  for  aH  I  know. 
We  hav0   andisavorsd  in  every  way  poasiblii   to   try   and  see   if  w@ 
could  our3.ilVQ8  find   aoias  explanation  of   thaaa   differences,   but 
th«  CoK^ission  insisted   that  %e  go  at  it    the  way  w©  did  yes- 
terday and  wc   got   .*hat  w3   could. 

Now,    to  l3ave  that  subject   sjnd  pass  to  another  subjsct 
which  we  consider  of  absolute   importance,    and  we  i-ndeavsred  to 
hava    th&  Hood  Ooapany  carry  out    thie  sam«  policy,    but  I   see   that 
it  has  not  b&^n  dona.     You  understand  you  ara  d-aling   with  S&p- 
teajfoar  costs,     ^varybody  kno%-s   that    the  costs  have   oaen  increas- 
ed since  Sspteiaber.     It  is  a  saatt-ir  of  racord  bars   in  rag-iird  to 
labor  costs,  ^hich  became  affective   after  this   shaet  was  made. 
I    think  perhaps,    if  I  asa  not  mistaken,    ther-j  have  i>c^n   Uo 
changes  in  labor  coats,   on  thv  basis  of  our  Septembdr  accounts. 
®e  hav0  brought  down  our   costs    to   January  of  191*^. 

On  page-  4  of   the  Whiting  Ooiupany  account  you  will  find   tha 
consolidatod  statenont  of  estimated  whole  aiiik  xn  quarts  for 
the  month  of  January,   based  upon  Sept  ember  figures   and  Xnown 
increases.     In  other  words,    tha  known  incroasos,    thu  actual 


i 


4 


t*v,v  :    B3  3;;c 


190 


incr-iasec   up  to    the  25  th  of  Deotimbsr,    or    *,ha   24  th  of  Da  camber. 
In  the  various  itass  that  are  compi-ahendod  by  this  cost   ac- 
counting of  S^pteiabsr  were   actually  taken  and  added  to   the 
Septsmber  figures,-  the  actual  incrc-ases   in   costs.       The   only 
difficulty,    then,   of  course,    in  ori^r  to  gat  imit  costs,    «as 
to  g-st    the  voltiEie  for  January,    and   that,   of  course,   was  a  dif- 
ficult thing. 

Hovj,    in  oriar  to  ,ret  tha  nrost  practical   thing  for   the 
CoiamisGion  we  did  tiiis:  'as   took   the    actual  volume   of   tha  eixUs; 
sold  for   the   firat  20   days   in  Decembar,    thg  actual  volume    gold 
as  family,    as  store,   sholesal©  and  as  cann-^d  milk,    ani  than  ws 
took  that  actual  volume    :ind  put  it  into    the  30  days  so   as   to 
Biak^   It  cofflgjarable  with  September,   b.icaus9  usually   the   volijms 
figured   that  way  would  be  as  nearly   accurate  for  January   as 
possibly  could  be  had  under  the-   circumstrmcas.     Wd  found  tiiat 
our  family   business  for   t2i9  month  of  DeQ-Bm'OQT  wO'xLd  be   substan- 
tially    lloX  of  our  family  business  for  B'jptembsr.     That  :say 
be  accounted  for  by   the  fact  that    this  year  in  September  !:.any 
psople  had  not    ratumsd  from  tJioir  summer   rcsidsncas,  and   so 
forth,   and  perhaps   the  family  trade  at   that    tim«  might  have   b^on 
a  little  off.     That  is  the  way  wa  account  for   that.     We  found, 
however,    that  our  wholesale  business  v>?as  80X  of    tlis   business  in 
Ssptsmber.     Our   cmnsd  Dusiness  wxs  85/?  of  Sapt^mbar. 

Oomra.  HO"RI?IS.  The  wholesale  business  dropped  off? 

Mr.   CUSIOK.        Y9S.     Tli3   wholesale   s"^.or3   busin:sE3   as  SCjjf 
Of  what  it  was   in  saptembsr.        Tha  rsduction  in  volume  in  Jan- 
uary   and  if'sbruary  will  probably  ba  in   tha  stora   :ixid  canned 
busindss*       W«  also  found   that   the   cann^jd  busin-sss  was  85X  of 
that,-  ISX  off.        How,    that   is   subs  tan  <:i  ally   as  n.;ar  .as    can   ba 
on   the  same  volume  of  trade   cusLomars   that  -w©  had  in  September. 
That   is,    thj  changes  on^   way  or  the-  oth-^r  were  inf inittisimal. 


■J  aiJ^ 


•io;a   uT'.    rs. 


191 


When   this   thing  was  workad  out»and   the  nsathod  of  working  out 

j  I  cosuaunicatod  with.  ilr.  Gilbsrt,   I   aaktdd  Mr.  Gilbert  to  coa- 
i 
municata  sith  iir.  Hawkins  —  Mr.  Hawkins  may  or  bj^  not  hava 

been   in   town  at  the  time  --  and  ask  if   the  Hood  Ooapany  could 
do  likewise,    so   that  you  viOiJ.d  have  hare  today  for   the   prices 
of  January,  is'ebruary  and  March,    the  very  beat  work  that  we 
eould  do   and    the  beat   information   that  you  could  have   as  show- 
ing the  costs  of  diatribution  and  processing  and  delivery  of 
milk. 

Sow,    to  pass  from  that  

Gomm.  M01?BIS.  Beforo-  you  pass  from  that.  This  whole ssula 
trade,  which  you  say  has  dropped  off,  is  duo  to  what?  *hat  is 
the  explanation  of  it? 

Mr.  CUSIOK.     I   ;4a  going   to  ask  Mr.   Charles  ¥thiting   to  make 
that  explanation,  Mr.  Morris.      Because,    whiia  X  havs  haard  it 
talkM  ovar,   I   do  not  think  I  have  bes^n  into  it   sufficiently 
to  exprass  it    as  ay  own  opinion.  ,;     : 

Coaai.  MOBl'IS.  That  trade  probably  is  Dupplied  all  the 
year  around,-  resides  here.  Hot  th^f  people  who  go  to  their 
sujamer  homes.  And  is  it  due  to  the  fact  that  they  use  less 
milk  on  account  of  hi,^  prices? 

Mr.   OUSICJK.      I   think  there   are  a  number  of  elemants   that 
enter  into   it.     I  will  speak  broadly  of   the  matter,  gencfrally. 
In   tJfie  first  place,    t>w  shifting  population   in  Boston.      I    tiiink 
that   perhaps   we  woxald   oe   surprised  if   fta  kne;t   the   number  of 
Visitors   that  visit  Boston,   especially  during   the  months   of 
August,   September  and  October.     And  1    think   th-ir  supply  would 
more   generally  come  from  the  wholesale  and  the   canned  business 
thsm  it   wo'-ild  from   the  family   business.      I    think   that   is   one 
item,-   that   if  we  knew  juct    the  shifting  of    the  popiilation  of 
Boston  it   would  surpriee   us  considerably.      In  oth^r  words,    they 


i>OA.:.\;C'-C'; 


■a    r; ^' :;.  ■  >.- i.^; i.i-:--u 


Vi- 


i    ..■  ri.i 


'.i: 


192 

use   a  lot  of  milk,   and  in  all  hveaiai  probability   that  siilk  com<ie 

either  from  stores  or  hotsla*   according  to  where   tiisy  are  stay- 
ing. 

Comm,  MOHT?IS.     But  your  hotal  trade  during  the  month,  of 
JDecamDer  probably  would  ba  in  excess  of  Ssptamber.     That   is, 
aore  people  visit   in   the  city   in   the  winter   time,    in  December, 
than  in  the  suminar 

Mr.   OUBIcac.        That   ie   the  point;    I   do  not  tiiinic  so.      I 
think  your  biggest  shifting  population  in  Boston  is  during  tltm 
nonths  of  Septaaiber  and  October.       That   ig  only  my  judgment, 
you  know, 

Coirim.   MO'R'RIS.     Well,    ;;'jr.  Whiting  aaay  havy   an  explanation. 

Mr.   OKAHLES  WHITIHG.        The   Jeciine   in  store   trade,    in 
wholesale   trade,    is  due  in  pnrt    to   seasonal   chan^^s,    weathsr 
Changes.     There   is  always  a  rr^duced  consump^-.ion  in  cold  waather. 
And   than,   further,    that  vi-as  accentuat«sd  by  the   increased  price 
of  bottlted  tniUc.     The  decline   in  th's   sales  of  canm^d  milk  is 
due  to    tha   seasonal  weather  changa,    and  also  lu«   to  reduction 
in  Government  orders.     Thsre  has  been   a  marked  reduction  in 
the  Goverraaant  demand  sines  the  signing  of   the   armistice. 

Ooajm.  MOB'RIS.      Is    tnsre  anyone    to  spsaJc  for  Mr.  Hood  on 
that  point?     Do   you  agre?^  %ith  Sr.  Whiting  as  to  tha  r^asone 
for  —  or  do  you  anticipate   th^rs  will  bs  any  reduction  in 
consump  tion? 

Mr»  MILLSTT.        Yes,    as  a  whole,    som-:J   slight  decrease  in 
consumption  in  January  as  compared  with  Ssptemb-ir. 

Soiffia.   MOM?IS.      Between  Septembar   and  Decembar  or  January? 

Mr.   MILLETT.        Yes.      In  a  general  kind  of  way   there   is 
soma  falling  off  on  wholesale  trade. 

Oomra.   MOBT^IS.     How  much  of    that  is   due   to    thj   prices,   in 
your  judgment? 


;  '■<!-     -^rx-.y 


133 


Mr.  MILL3TT.      W<5ii,    that   is   a  difficxilt  qiujstion  to   answer, 
Mr*  Oosffiiission&r.      I  aai  not  prep:drsd  to   say.     Of   coiirse,   I   think 
somo   of   that  is  aue   oecause  prices  ar©  hi^^^sr  now  th^i   txiey 
wars  in  Septyatoar.     But   broadly   speaking  th-sre  ie   a  little  drop- 
ping off  on   the  ¥/hDle8ala   trade   in   the  loonth  of  January,    almoet 
Invariably.        Just  how  much  it  v/ili  bo   this  year  I   do  not  pre- 
tend to  know, 

Comrn,  M0TOI5.     Weather  conditions   will  probably  affect  it? 
If  any  graat  amount  of  reduction  in  consumption  i£3  due    to    the 
prices,    it  prosants  rather  a  difficult  problem,   ao3sn*t   it,  for 
the   domM scion? 

Mr,  GUSIGK,       Ys3.     It  is  an  unfortunate    thins,  but  you 
can*t  halp  it.        I  hav*  no  aoubt   that   th^ra  would  be  mora  milk 
sold   if  WW  could  sell  it   at   tJas  old  price  of  3  c^nts   than  at 
16   cents.     But  it  has  been  rather  remarkable,-  I    think  1    can 
say  that  our  -sxperisnoo  h?is  bimn.   tiiat   the  high  pries  has  really 
not   affected  the  voltan--   as  much   .la  anybody  would  r^^asonably 
9xp©ct  it  would.      That  is   about   true,   isn't  it? 

Mr.   OHAH-ES  WHITING.       Yes. 

Mr.   CUSIOK.     Wa  have  look-^d   into    thai:   as   car^ifully   as  '#»e 
knew  how,   and  ws  havs   btsen  rathar  surprised  oursalvss.      1    think 
i?aatii-3r  conditions  hcis  a  great  dsal  more  affect  on  it    tlian  the 
pricss  hav©  at   all  times, 

Coinm.  MOB"RIS.     I  interruptad  you  in  what  you  were   saj'ing. 

Mr,   OUSIGK.       The   value   of  a  sheet   compiled    that   way  aust 
appeal  to  the  CoBsnis  si  oners.     And,   furtheriaore,    the  forca  of 
what  I  was  trying  to  get   at  in  regard   to   the  few  discrapancies,- 
If  those   accounts  which  I   havi   r'^f^rrad  to   in  ;:sy   first   state- 
mont   were  nearly   tha   same,-  just    those  few  accounts,-  you  would 
have   a  ramarkabls   consistency  in  your   cost  accoxmt  ii>:2riii   much 
mors  so   than  what  we  had  any  r-ason   to  ^jxpect. 


■  '•  t 


p'  i.    \i'. '' 


■H<'1 


.  -I  :-. 


X»4 

Just    to  go   badk  for  a  moiaant,   thsre  i«  some  jaiistaka   tnere, 

in  xay   iudgffi^;;nt,   oithar  on  our  part  or  on  others,   3i  tiier  in  allo- 
cation or  something  of   that  kind.     Ana  if  we  h^id  time   thers  is 
no  doubt  we  could  ^ork  it  out.     i&hy  I    thiink  that  perhaps  it  la 
a  mistake  on   the  Kood  side  is,    of  couroe,  Mr.  Hatskins  did  not 
have    tha   tiia«?    to  go  into   the  thing   tiiat  Scoveli  Wellington  & 
Oomgcmy  aid.     Ke  had  to  do  it  vary  q\iickly.     And  tha  further 
thing  that   the  figures  on   the  Aldan  Brothers  CJompiany  rather  sup- 
port our  oontisntion  that  %»  are  near  right,    taking  thair  voluma 
into  consido^ration. 

That   is  -dLll  there   is   to   that. 

Gonm,  UOWIB*     Have  you  a  copy  of   those  Alien  figures? 

Mr,   CUSICK.     Yqs,   sir,    (distributing  copies  of  statement). 

Ooiffia.   SA1TS"R.     Mr,  Cusick,   I  would  like  to  ask  you  what 
your  opinion  is  on   the  volume  of  hiisinctss  for  J'abruary  and  Earch 
as  compared  with  Saptember?     You  jutva  only  giv^n  it   to  us  for 
tha  dycrsase  in  volume  on  January  sales. 

Mr.   OUSJOiw.     We    took  it  on   th=3  near^fst  aonth,     I   e»ill  ask 
Mr.   Whiting   to  atatd  his  opinion  on   tiiat. 

Oosjm.   SAWYEB.     Oan  you  givw  us   that,   air.   Whiting,   bacause 
!»■#  ara   supposed   to  fix  the  prices  for  three  sonths. 

Mr*   0IIA"8LES  WiilTlKG.      I   should  think  witJi   th©  facta  «© 
have,  offhand,    that   tha  astiaiata  for  January  would  obtain  for 
S'ebruas^   mid  jaarch.     Of  coiirse,  we  do  not  know  what  pric-js  will 
bs  promulgattsd. 

0OHE3.  idOH'HIS.     Well,   hitvtt  you  any  foresight  or  prophacy 
as  to    fji0  labor  qu-astion  for   th-.;  n^^xt  thrse  months?     I   see  by 
tiie  papers    that  labor  is  vary  plentiful. 

Mr.   WHITI54G.      I    triink  wd  have*   probably  riiiich^d  tha  height 
Of  0Xpenos,   but  I   doubt  if   th^^rt?  will  be  any  dc-crsasa  isffootivti 
in   the  next  few  aaonths. 


;,-,  i  ,  _  -i 


i.  i"*,     O  >~ 


V!'iA;    ,i;:\-  t;  "*-,/* 


x± 


1«5 

Cosffii.   SAWYSB.     What  has  bean  the  history  of   the  volume  of 
sales  in   the  past  for  January,  February  and  March?     Do  you  hava 
that  in  mind?     As  compared  with  Septeisibtfr. 

Mr,  WEITISG.     My  recollection  ie   that  it  runs  along  about 
tJia    same  • 

Oooaa.  SAWVii:^.     The  same  ae  what;   September? 

Mr,  WHITING.       January,  j'abruary  and  ISarch, 

Oowm,  SAWYSB.     Wotild  run  along  the  same   as  Saptembsr? 

Mr,  WHITING.     No,    sir.     Js'ebruary  and  March  would,  run  about 
as  January. 

Ooaan,  SAWfZTf,     And  January  lowar  than  September  somewhat? 

Mr.  MilTINn,     Yes,   sir,    Jiatinctly. 

QoBus,   SAWYEB.      That   is    tha  past  history? 

Mr,  WKITIHG.     That   is  always    trus. 

Ooaam.   SAWYSB.        Would   that   b9  your  opinion,   :-<,ar*  Mlllatt? 

Mr.  MimSTT.     I  ?.*as  trying  to  iooic  baclc  ovar   this  ysars  as 
air.  Whiting  was   taUsing.     As  a  gansral  etateaant,  ysss,   I   think 
that  is  all  right.      I    think   thsr©  may  be   a  very  slight  increas© 
in  i'abiniary,  perhaps*     Uot  v^ry  cauch.     i'ebruary  is  an  expensive 
month  In  which   to  do  business.     I    ciill  your  attention   to   that. 
It   is  A  short  month.  - 

Ooram,  BISD.     Mr,  Whiting,    just  what  are  the   things  -mich 
go  in  to  msLkd    the  increased  cost  in  ^^zpenss  on  your  estimate 
here  outside  of   th^^  decrease  involums?     What  are  soma  of   the 
items  that  have  increased  in  cost  sinca   the   suronier? 

^r,  WIHTIFS,     That   is,   what  have   increassd   tha   January 
over  ths  Ssptsmb-^r  costs? 

Oornn,   BI'BD,       Yos. 

3lr,  WHITING.  An  increase  in  plant  labor,  an  increase  in 
©tabla  labor,  some  increase  in  offi<»  labor.  Of  course  there 
aro  sons©  seasonal  increases:  thii  fuel  item  is  heavier  in  the 


,.wTirt-r 


.  ■    '        -■•■I 


"£:• 


18 


196 
winter.     On  the  othar  hand,   the   ice   it  am  is  less,     Thara  ara 
some  seasonal  chan^ds  I  don't   thlrlk  of.     But  thos-a  ara   ths  prin- 
cipal onaa. 

Coiam.  3ITU)»     How  much  iijifi  your  plant  labor  Incraas^d? 
Mr.  WHITING.     Th.3  plant  labor  has  incr-aased  lo/;    stable 
labor,   25;^. 

ilr,  HAWKINS.     May   I  make  a  stat@mant? 
Ooam.   M0'R1?IS.        Tos. 

Mr.  HAWKINS.      I  would  like   to  stats  soaisthing  in  connaction 
with  these  reports. 

Ooitsn.  MOB?JS»     We  will  give  you  a  chance  latar. 
Mr.   CUSiaK.     I  might  say   that  'Jjr*  Perkins  is  hor©  now, 
and   if  you  desiro,   Mr.  Bird,   ha    zm  go   into    thw  dytail   and   tt^ll 
you  how  he   oompilsd   that  January   accoxait. 

Comm.   BIIiD.      I    think  ycu  have  explained  how  hs  cosipiled  it, 
as  far  as   that  is   concsmsd.     I   just  -^ant^sd  to  know  istfiat  somw  of 
the  details  were  that  m  ade   tha   increased  cost  over  September. 
Primarily  labor  has  increased  over  Heptsaber.     Mr.  ilillstt,   do 
you  coincids  with  that  statemant  of  Mr.   Whiting  as   to  your 
labor  increase? 

Mr.  HIIXE7T.     There  may  have  b^im  soms  labor  increases 
since  Ssptembsr,   yes. 

Ooaara.  BIRD.     What  ?i^ouid  go  in   to  ra-aks  up   ths   inoraassd 
cost  for  yoii  in   tJrie  Eaonth  of  January  ovar  Saptaaber?  I 

Mr.  MILLETT.     As  I  say,   I  did  not  g^it   this   statsimsnt  of 
iir.  Hawkins'    until  about  noontime  yesterday,   so  that  I  had  no 
chance   to  aaka  any  detailed  study  along   that  line,   of   coxirae. 
Thare  hava   baen  some  labor  increases  along  tha  linos  Mr.   Whiting 
aisntioned.     And  ws  havs  a  heavier  bottle  expense  through  br^ak- 
ago  in  cold  weather  than  wc  do  in  warm  -.vjathar.      Just  how  much       I 
hsavior   that   is,   of  course,   depands  a  good  d^al  upon  *<hat  tho  I 


vj    J&()C> 


'tl:.\i-    -  coy  I 


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X97 

weather  is  during  the  winter  months.     Then  I    call  your  attention 

to  the  fact   that  i'ebruary  ie  a  28-day  month  and  that   the  fixed 
charges  figured  out  on  a  monthly  baaiB  are  necessarily  higher 
par  day  on  the  28-deiy  aonth  than  on  a  30  or  31-day  month, 

Ooiam,  BIBD.      Takan  coilsctivsiy  for  the  thriis  aonths,  how 
isrould   th«y  figure  out? 

Mr.  MILLSTT.        1   don't  know  very  aauch  about  that,     I  hava 
in  mind  particularly  i'sbruary.     *ith   tha  hard  going  that  we  gst 
mors  or  iess  in  the  wintar  aiontha   thts   tia*  spent  is  apt   to  run 
tt  little  higher.      I   do  not   t^iink  of  anything  alse  particularly, 
at    ths  aoraent. 

Comm,   ail?!).     On  your  lat)or.      What  labor  haa  advanced  with 
you? 

Mr,  MILLSTT.     The  piunt  labor  hoB  adv-sinc^d  to  aoiavi  extent, 

Oo2iia,  BfHD.     Ko^-  much? 

Mr.  .lILIJilTl'.      I  haven't    tiiat   in  mind;    I   couldn't   say, 

Oocaa.    BIRD,      \3ould  you  give  ma    xny   idsa? 

Hr.  I-HLLSTT.      Sinco  September?     iiell»   I   thinic  yesterday  I 
said   tjaere  may  have  bQ^n  a  general  advano'^j  on  everything  except 
tJia  drivers,   which  was  effective  with  September,    the  last  in- 
crease,     I    thini:   it  aiity    oe   a,s  niuoh  as  10X« 

Comrn.  BIR0*     That  includt=ts  youi*  plant  ana  your  stable  both? 

Mr.   MILLETT.        Yes.      Practically  all    tiie  help  except    tha 
drivers, 

CoGua.    JOHDAH,     Bow  about   tJie  stable  labor,   2r,  iSillett? 

Mr.   MILLSTT.      I    said,    all  labor  except   the    cir ivers.      That 
lOX  is   rather  an  offhcuid  statement,   you  under etand.      I   have   not 
compared  it, 

Oomm,   BII?D.     21r,   Millett,    you  concur  ^ith  'dr,  Whiting  that 
there   IS   a  decreased  voluae  normally   in   the   :?«>nthc   of   January, 
J'sbruary  and  March,    as  compared  with  September? 


^  ..  -..■/;        > 


14 


1^ 

Jlr.  MILLSTT.     Yes. 

Oosaa.  BISD.      And   th-if  aecrtsased  volume  plus    thase   szaaH 
inerstases   in  expenc©  yoti  figure  will  make  an  incraas««d  cost   in 
thoso  months? 

Mr»  MILIBTT.        Yes. 

Ooam.   BISD.     Havs  you  got  any  figures  or  anything  to   siiow 
^pproxiaately  what  figure  that  Lnor^ase  will  &3  over  Sapteaber? 

Mr.  MILLETT.     Uo;   but  I   said  a  xaoment  ago  I   <lian*t   get 
these  figxa-es   and  have  a  chance    to  study    tlaim.  until  just  about 
noon  yesterday,    ana  I  have-  not  had  a  chance   to  work  that  out, 

Cosaa.   BIHD.     In  coaiparing  tills   sh/set  of   tiia  Miiting  Cosi- 
psanj,   sheet  4,   «rith  thsir  sheet  1,   would  you  feel   tiiat   those 
advances  woi;J.d  ba  equally  la.rg<2  with  the  Hood  Oompany,   or  not? 

Mr.   MIIISTT.     Weil,    I   should   tiUnJc,   ^lanoing  ov^^r   it 
hastily,    that  he   was  a  littio  low  in  his  estimate  on  famili-^s, 
and  possibly  a  little  high  in  his  estimatad  increase  an  whole- 
sale. 

Oomrs.  BIHD.     You  ar^   talking  now  of  volxiae  or  expense? 

Mr.  MILLETT.     Weil,   I  am  put-.ing  his   total  figures   — - 

Gojsa.  BIHD.     You  thinJk  his  increase   is  a  little  lom  on 
family  and  a  little   too  gr^at  on  wholesale  and  store? 

Mr.  MILLBTT.     I    fehink    tri-it  would  be  our  expyri^nca,   with- 
out  a  chaact^   to  study  it   very  carefully. 

COHsa.   BIIO.      Well,    in  applying   thesa   increases    to  your 
business,    if   ths  svm  total  of    those   —  sea  if  I   c-Ji  explain  what 
I  ma  an  —  how  would   ths  siaa  total  incr.-:ase  in  cost  apyly  in 
its  division  to  your  company?     I  mean,    if   the  sum  total  of 
these  incraases  amounted  to  a  certain  amount  of  additional  wx- 
ponse,   how  MOuld    they  apply  in  your  business?     You  say   that  one 
is   too  high   .md    the  othvjr  too  low. 

Mr.   alLLETT.      I   do  not  bcjlieve  I   could  make,   without  an 


r;.. 


xo 


X99 


oxtendud  atudy,   a  isiore  dsfinita  stat^isent  than  that. 

Cofflm.   BI"R15«     How  soon  could  you  glvs    to    the   Oointaisaion  a 
atat&m&nt  as  to  how  much  you  vsould  te^X  tiu  increaae  would  ba  to 
the  Hood  Company  on  these  comparative  bases? 

Mr.  MILLSTT.     Well,   anything  except  a  snap  judgment  would 
take   luitQ  a  little  study. 

GOfflja.   BI!?D»      The   3onEsisaion  would  hava   to  mJce   that 
judg^aent  Tor  you,   I  guess,   in  tnat  s<ise,    :xnd  possibly   their 
judgment  f»ovild  not  be  as  good  as  yours* 

Mr.   'dILLETT*      I  hatd    to  mAk&  a  stataxji^int  I    oan*t   baek  up 
afterwards. 

Mt,  J,  K.  WillTIHG.     I   think  both  Sr.  Mills ^t  ana  my  brother 
neglectad  to  call  attention   fco   tii^  shrinkage  in  cold  weather. 
That  is  an  item  thatt  is  considsrabiy  laore  in  freyzing  weather 
than  in  the  ordinary  days. 

Corani.   3IBI).     How  much  raore?  .  -  . 

Mr.  WHITI¥G.      I   should  astiatite  it  *ua  at  i^ast  a   third; 
perhaps  more  than  that.     You  understand  that    the  equipmsiht   the 
railroad  coap-iniss  furnish  le  not  adsiuate  '^ithar  for  propssr 
refrigeration  of  mil^  nor   to  prevent  the  freezing  of  tailk  in 
cold  a@at.her.     Last  winter  «e  hafi  frozen  silk  continually.     We 
do  not  knoss,   of  coursti,  what   the  veathar  conditions  iJ.re  going 
to   be    this   winter,   but  if    they  are  anything  lUcs  v/liat    they  ssrere 
last  ainter  there  will  be    -juite  a  serious  shrinkage  &Vtiry  week 
oauoiijd  by  thawing  that  milk  out. 

Oh^iinaan  MORRIS*     ihat  da  you  do  with   thti  frozen  milk? 

"^r.  WlflTISG.     liavo   to   thaw  it  out. 

Comm.   MOPPIS.      The  added  exxjense   comes    in   t.hu    thawing? 

Mr.  WHITISG.       Yes.     And  of  course  aora  or  lose  of  it  will 
stick   to    the  can.     Where  it  stretches  out  and    takijs   timj,  the 
aen  are  not  as  careful  and  some  of  it  .goes   thax>u3h  the  washer 


ric; 


V.      ai^a^fc 


16 


200 

and  is  wasted. 

Goiffia.   BI'RD.      If    that   ia   tha   cas«,  why   didn't  you  put  do«(n 
thid  milk  shrinkage   in  your  estimated  cost  for  January,   as  you 
hav'i  for  5?wpt«siat)ar? 

Hr.  WHITI¥Q,     I   think  you  r?iii  havtf   to  ask  my  brotinir  why 
it  was  not  put  in.     But  I    think  h«s  will  agjres  with  jsq©,   and  tiiat 
Mr*  MlXldtt  wiii  agra<i  with  ina,    that   that   is  qui  lis  an  important 
item.     My  brothsjr  corapiled   thoae  figuris  and  perhaps   it  was   an 
oversight  on  his  part   that  attention  was  not  called   to   that  whan 
thoss  f iguTttS  ware  made   up. 

(Oommissioner  O'Hare  arrives.) 

Mr.  GUSIOK.     How,  Mr.  Ohairaian,   I  want  to  turn  to   tha 
Alden  Brothers  0ompany*8  reports  for  tm  zaonths  of  September, 
Octooar  imd  Movasmber,    in  conformity  with  your  uniform  classifi- 
cation.    Ana  for   tiia  purposes  of  tha  record  I   want   to  point  out 
to  you  thiit  tho  nat  loss   in  r'epteabar  on  th«,»  fluid  laiik  biisis 
was  |39G,   »hich  was  17/iOO  of  one  per  cunt,   lass  tiian  ths  6 
per  cant  invastraeat  whi<^  you  understand  is  in  your  uniforiB 
classification. 

Gojfflm.  MOB?JS.     Just   a  soaont.     Will  you  giv3  jas  that  again? 
That   does  not  correspond  '»aith  the  f  igursjs  which  I  seam   to  have 
got  somswhsrs.      I  have  got  a  gain  of  |79.09.     Wh^ra  did  I   gst 
thosa  figures? 

Mr,  AMBAOK.      Tii&t  is   only  one   sheet.     If  you  havs    the 
stats^ssiint  of  whola  xailk  operations  it  srill  give-  you  th-j   total 
milk. 

Soiaa.  EGBBIS.     That  was   tha  r23ult  of   tha  pi-ofit  and  loss 
shset  TKhioh  was  turned  in   to  us  last  night,-  a  gain  of  $75.09. 

l!r.   3USI0K.     So,   Mr.   'Jhairman,    it   is   important    that   we 
should  differentiate.     Tha  profit  and  loss  shsiet  which  you  have 
boan  getting  has  been   th^  profit  and  loss  sheet  according   to  j 


n.i    ,:i  V    ij: 


^i:>-;n.-^-.    6;y*l;. 


..;^u...; 


;^,\; 


17 


201 

the   booke  on   th<?  whole  buainsas.     Now,    this    that  I   am  now  ra- 
counting   to  you  is  your  profit  or  lose  imdar  your  unifora 
classification  and  pertains  solely  and  entirely   to    the  fluid 
milk. 

Oojnm.  MOBBIS.     I   sae. 

Mr»   OUSIOK.     In   the  month  of  October   nvs  account  shows 

$82.61  gain,   or  gubotanti:illy  l/so  of  ona  par  cent,   in  sxcsss 

of   the  6  por  Cv^nt  on  investsjent.     In   the  month  of  Wovembar  tha 

account  shows  |1,791.35,   or  practically  3/%  of  ona  per  cent. 

on 
).os8,   aiiniis,   the  6  per  csnt.lnvestm-ant.      Just   to  ^lanca   at  his 

entire  November  accoimting  will  indicata  perhaps  one  of    the 
questions  which  is   tsroubling   the  Oommissioner  thare,    md  shows 
whara    the  volume  of  milk  begins   to  drop. 

I   axs  no-s?  going  to  ask  Mr.  Amback   to    take  hie  first   state- 
ment,   that  of   the  whole  milk  operations  for  S^^ptember,   and 
rsfar  ©spociaily   to   tJie  itsm     of  refrigeration  for   the   bearing 
it  would  have  on   the  stateiTjsnt   that  I  have  made    that   the  Aiden 
Brothers  Oompany  carries  out  practically  our  contention  about 
that  refrigeration  item.        And  he  will  ^sxplain  othsr  triings 
tha  ra   in   connection  witii  ths  Allan  Brothers*   sheets,   s/hich  h© 
thinks   r^iuirs  attention,    and  which  he  can  do  better  than  I 
could.  ■'     ■        • 

STATEMEITT  BY  Hf^GlHAUJ  AJIBAOK. 


Mr.  AM3ACJK.     The  item  of  rafrigeration  in  our  sheet  haadad 
•Stateitaent  of  Whole  Milk  Operations  ror  tha  Jionth  of  Jjeptambar" 
is  |1,280,    -xs  compar^sd  with  |6,lii  on   th3  Whiting  she^t.     Our 
voluae   is  approximately  one-fifth  of  Whitings'    so    that   thosa 
axponsss  s^'em  to  be*   in  about   that  proportion. 
(3y  Mr.    Ousick.)     Kill  you   tell  how  you  got   that   acco^lnt,  idr. 


m) 


uo    V. 


•,:.*«i7v5    '31;    vtfec 


18 


202 


Aaback?         A.     That   item  of  raf rigerat ion  is  only  the  cost  of 
the  ice  f.o.b.   our  plant.     Wa  have  no  system  of  rafrigsration. 
We  buy  all  our  ice  usjd  for  refrigeration. 

Taken  from   the  actual  books?       A.     That   itsai  is    taksn  from  our 
books  and   can  be  supported  by  vouchers  and  entries  on   the  books. 
Did  you  allocate   that  it*m?       A.     That  item  is  allocated  to 
alXk  as  against  crsam,   buttarmilk   and  skim,   on    vhich  the  ice 
is  used* 

Comtn.  BIRD.      How  did  you  allocate   it?     On  what  basis? 

Mr,   AMBAOK.     As  rs^uired  in  the  book. 

Mr.   CUSIGK.     Le  wants    to  know   dofinitaly.     Go  right  into  it 

CoEEn.  MOHBIS.     That  calls  for  a  percentage,    doesn't  it? 

Mr.  CUSICK.   H©  will  do  it. 

Mr,  A^AOK.     Bafrigeration  is  undier   th-a  heading  of  Oity 
Sxpans^sS   and  inoludiid  in  the   item  *  Processing"   on    tiie  Unit  3ost 
sheet.     That  was  allocatad  on  tht  following   basis;     Pints  as 
z/4  of  a  luart,    whether  it  is   croi^,   butti2raiilk,   skim,   or  what 
Aas   in  thy   bottle;    ^snd.   cans  on  tha   basis   spoken  of  on  page  1,- 
1   luart  of  milk  siuivalent   to  3-1/P,  quarts  of  can  milk.      In 
othsr  words,   I   cailsd  a  3uart  of  creaa  just    tiia  saciu   as  a  luart 
of  milk,    and  a  ^uart   of  butt4jrmilk  the  same  as  a   -juart  of  lailk 
in  applying  that  basis,   as  it   took  as  much  iC3  for  cream  or 
butteraiilk  as  it  woxild  for  whole  lailk. 

Comm.  MOBP.IS.     Vou  harvest    the  ice  yourself? 

Mr^  AMBAOK.     We   do  not.     Tns  ice  under  the   item  ■refriger- 
ation*  to  which  we  are  referring  was  bought  as  ice   and  not  har- 
vested  07  oxirsjlves.      The  ice  undsr  country  axpenses  v;as  harvost- 
ed  by  ourselves.        We   do  not  have   enough  to   ship    to   the;   city. 

OocBn.  xOtlV-lS*     Lot  mn  ask,  mt,  Cusick,  whether   the  Plaiting 
Company  has   their  own  ice? 

Mr.  CUSICK.   Yes.   We  do,  don't  we,  Mr.  Whiting? 


t^nP-^        <i  V   A  '.-ii  "'.>• 


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19 


203 
Mr.   OHABLSS  WKITIHQ.        Yes. 

Mr.   3USICK.      I  know   thera  are  a  numbar  of  xoa  hous-as   ail 
over    tho  lot. 

OoffiBB.  220"RT?1S.     Go  ahead. 
%     (By  Mr.   Ousiek. )     Whit  were  you  paying  for  ica   in  ^sptembar? 

Bo  yoii  remsiaber? 
A     (By  Mr.   Amback. )     Mo,   I   do  not. 

Q     You  can   g&t   thosa  figurao,    oan't  you,    if  we   ?/ant    tham? 
A     I   can  get    tJiem  if   they  ars  wranted. 

Mr,  CUSIOK.     To  interrupt,  :2r»    :;hairman,   I  might  state  for 
Mr.    John  K.  Whiting  that   the  Brighara  Company   and   tha  Sim  ij*ana 
Corapany  buy  their  city  ica.     DonH  you  harvest  ice    too? 

Mr.   JOHH  K.  Whiting.      Country.  '■    - 

Mr.  OUSICK.     Harvest  ice   in   the   country  but  buy   city  ico. 
I).  Whiting  &  Sons  harvest  all  their  ice. 

Ooraoi.   MO'H^IS.       How  did  you  put   that  ice  into   the  account 
hare?     At   the  going  city  prices  or  what   it   costs  you   to  harvest 
it? 

Ht.   CUSIOK.      At  cost. 

Mr.  SEARS.      I  remembor  at   the  hearing  «e  had  before   the 
Interstate  Ooamjarc©  Ooxnmission  two  y stars  ago   the    juastion  of 
cost  of   icing  cars  came   in,   and  there  w^re  figures  ahown  by 
the   railroad  company  of   tha  cost  of   icing  cars    then.     They  wisre 
icing  cars   in  Massaehusstts  and  dealers  were   icing  outside 
Massachusetts.     2:low,    the  railroad  companias*    cost  of  icing,    a^ 
I  recall  it,   was  savssn  or  diight   timds  grt>ater  thsai  the  d^ai^irs* 
costs. 

Costm,  M01?T?IS.      I  saw  that  statera^tint  made  in  some  report. 

Ur,  CUSICK.     You  may  proceed,  Mr.  Amback. 

Mr.  A1©A0K.      I  would  like    to    call  your  at^-jntion    to    the 
fact   that  our  selling  cost  of  pints  in  Ssptainber  was    .08195, 


J 


:'    SDX    .■*'- 


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204 

as  compared  with  the  Hood  cost  of  .085,  ana  th^  whiting  of 

.0823. 

That  would  aaks  about  4  mills   diff;3rsnoe   by.s©d  on  your 

Between  3  and  4  mills  per  pint  difx'orance. 

3aji  you  tall  me  from  your  axp^^riance  which  i©  t,hd  hardest  bus- 
inscs  on  bottles  and  cases,   family  or  stor-s   business?     I  mean, 
\>y   th&  •hardast",   in  ^-hich  line  do  you  loss   ths  most  'bottles? 
We  ii83  t.ha    stors  feottls,   eo  wij  actually  lose  non«  in  tha  stares 
on  the  store  bottlas,   while  we  lege  a  great  asany  on  the  fasiilie& 
But  previous   to  having  fiie  stora  bottles,    the  store  loss  aaa 
much  haavior  than  tiie  fouaiiy, 

I  i:v.-an,    talking  about    ths  loso  now.     Undar  the  present  condi- 
tions lindar  which  you  ars  working,   is  youa*  lose  more  in  bottles 
in  f  amilisg  or  in  sitoras?  A»      In   families. 

What  do  you  say  about   tlxt?  increase  or  decrease  of  business  in 
January,  js'ebruary  and  March?       A.     If  you  will  notisa  our 
Hov^iaber  aheetis  as  comparsd  with  Septambar,  you  ^^iil  notice 
that  our  stor^i  volume  dropped  froai  -55,000   in  Sept0iab«r   to   77,000 
la  ^C'VamifC'ti  our  n&zex  from  127,000  ia  Ssptaatbsr  to  12i,0C>0  in 
Hovc-mber,     Ws  have   b^sa  rather  surprised  at   th©  aarKad  dscrcaee 
in   thci   atora   triads.        That  is  partly  accounted  for  toy   thd  wiv-ath- 
©r,  Vat  W3   -ira   unHOia  to   aooouafe  for  such  a  marked  decrease  as 
Via   felt  Jilong  in  th«  jfidnth  of   'Joveabar.     In  Daoimber  our  voliia^ 
of   store   luarts  tvili  prooably  bs  cven  j.«>as  than  Kovsmber.     I 
hava  no  Januitry  sheot,  here,  but  I    think  our  January  costs 
will  not  b0  far  diffarent  from  our  'Sovumbtir,   probably  slightly 
highei^  bec;:iu6«    tha  volume  will  be   slightly  lass,    as  far  as  wa 
con  see  ahcaad* 

Coaaa.  O'HAPvS.       H-iVe  you  aade  any  xniuiries  as   to    thtJ 
causj  of  failing  off  of  trnds? 

2»'r.   Aii3ACi:»      1   io  not  just    underoi^and  what  you  mean* 


•  ■- 

^t.rii 

,.  5:S> 

UJ 

"..  f'<'     ':/ 

•i-.-.»      ,'..::-: 


!,.^:  •      :■*■-- 


S05 


Iniuiri^a  of  ¥»tiom? 

Comaa.  0*HA'??:3.     Of    the  a  tor  a   dealers* 

Mr,   ASIBACK*     Why,   I   hiiv?s   not  psrsonaiXy,   no.      As  far  as  I 
kno-ft,    thjsy  do  not  knoi#   thamsjivas  why  it  is,     1 1  is  such  a  v^^ry 
saall  loss  on  sach  store   that  no  on*  s* orsxaepi^r  v»ouid  notice 
any  appreciable  loss  on  his  own  busina^ss;    but  wiidn  you  dis- 
tribute it  over  a  nicabsr  of  hundred  stores  it  aawjunts   to  a  son- 
aidera^lG  loss* 

Ooaim,  SIItDs  Mr,  Aiaback,  what  ia  it  that  has  incr^aesd 
your  coats  over  Septsrab^r? 

Mr*   ./UIBAQK,     Ths?  vsry   it&rm  that  Ur,   Whitin^^  and  Ur*  Mili- 
ott  have   spokan  of, 

Soaom,   BIHD»     Wait  &  minxite.     Bo  you  concia:  in   thsir  state- 
fflifents  as  to   the   cause?  -  '■  ■■-- 

j  Jar,   AMEACK.     I  dOs     Largely  labor*   partly  d.i>crea8sd  volume, 

ae   our  sheet  will  show, 

Oomm,  BIKD,     How  lauch  h-^s  libor  Incr-aased? 

Mr,  ^3ACa<.,  Why,  w-a  ara  undt^r  f>i&  Union  schedule*  Our 
figures  aru    the  s-ame  as  Mr.  Whiting's,  • 

dossn^  BIIU).     Tharc?  eaeass    to  bo   30KJf«   liffarenc^  of  oi;inrion 
bstwesa   th»  Whiting  Ccspany  and   the  Kool  Goapany   as    to   what 
that  percentage   is, 

Mr,   AMBAOJ:,     WqH,    that   is   tha   ri-ason. 

Coma,  BIBD,  What  percentaga  do  you  mj^e   it?  About  what 
psr  cant  has  that  increased? 

Mr,  AMB*\CK.   You  want  the  percent  of  increase  in  the 
different  departments? 

Ooma,   Bl'HD*     Yes, 

Hr.  AiSSBAOK*  Wsll,  offh;md  I  Ciin*t.  give  you  that;  but  I 
do  Jcnow  -w^  ara  undsr  tho  Union  oohadul©,  and  we  pay  tha  same 
prices  tne  Whiting  Compioy  doss.     I   could  ask  Mr.  Whiting. 


"    '?.!=^    -ru  .-Vii.^'-. 


i:  c^>/ 


22 


206 


Oojam.  BIHI).     lie  has  told  mi,     Don't   you  know  ffhat   it  is? 

Mr*   AMBAOJ:.      I  know  we  are   payin.-s   tM-   sase  as  the   ^Tilting 
Company.     If  you  want  m&   to  get   thnt  froa  our  oooks  I   will  Od 
glad  to  do  it. 

Gonaa.  BIl^D.  I  would  just  like  to  get  something  that  »oxild 
harmonize  here  between  you  -jxid  the  Whiting  Compaiy  and  tha  Hood 
Company,   if  you  are  all  ^laying  the  saaa  scale. 

^r,   ASSACK.      I   don*t  know  that  we  are.      7ha  Eood  Oompany 
cloos  not  Bmploy  Union  m^in,    you  know,   and  do  not  naceaaarily  pay 
the  sase  as  we  do. 

Mr.   SSAHS.     Tha  Hooa  Oorapany  pays  mor-j,   I   tiiink,    than  the 
Wni'lng  Goap  iniss  do, 

OoHsra.   5AWYSB.        Mr.  Araback,  have   you  your  three  shsats 
headed  "Stateta^nt  of  ishole  ^ilk  Operations*    I'or  Septembsr, 
Octooer  and  Soverabjr  right  b-^jfora  you?     Oan  you  arrange   them  in 
front  of  you? 

Mr.    AlBASK.      Ail  right,   X   hav^^    tiieia. 

Ooma*  SAWY^.      How,    your  s-ales  of  whold  milk   for   the 
iQonth  of  .Hovoaibv3r  ars  |2,500  mors   than  m  Ssptemb^r,   in  round 
nmabers? 

Mr.   AMBACK,        Yes. 

Ooaso,   ??AWY3:B.     Your  expenses  for  Jlov^zsb^r,   |4,000,  prac- 
tically, aors  in  Movamh^r  tnan  in  Saptember. 

Ui*.    AMBACK.     That   is  true. 

Ooaxna.   SAWYJ)!?.      Now,    isn't   your  incriasad   loss,    then     in 
"^'ovcnxber,   over  your  loos  in  Sap*;amber  —  of   ooursu,    oarrxng 
intssrest  which  you   char^i   off   as  a  part   of  your  «xp«nsa   of   do- 
ing businass   —   dlu'd   to    tha    liffarancj   in   ths   cost   of   -^hole 
milk   sold"     In  ?Jcvinib3r  52,400;    Sypto'mbar  28,0CC,    practically 
|4,0G0.      In  othsr  worde,   your  whol«  milk  cost   you  §4,000  mor^ 
in  li"0V(3inber  than  it  oia  in  S^pt^jmb^r. 


c 


ctedz    ,>:JiC-C   h— '•  ■'"^^- 


«         « 


a^ 


5307 

Mr*  AMBAC?3i.      It  did,   but  you  will  rrfoadi  the  prisu»    tfia 

CojBmlssioa  s^i't  tor  mXXk  was  s<jffie«iiat  mor®.      I  iiiiv©n*t   th«? 
figure  in  mini, 

O0i3xsi«   SAWYii"R.     Weii,   I   ¥<as   trying   to  acisount  for  tnat, 

Mr,  AHBAOK.     And   tiia   seiiin^  priori  waa  also  more,  ■tthxah 
aa]c3s  our  dollars  and  csnts  salss  laor*  for  Hovembsr   than  Sap- 
t;iEiber»    ^Uiougii  «=■*  eoid  a  gr«at  auiao-,sj-  oi;    :iuarta  1-iss,   its  is 
8hO'ife-a  icy  our  Bapt'Saiiitr  statsajfe'nt* 

0<5aaa«   SA'tlrTSH*        Wi'll,    in  JJoviiafcisr  you  had  no   surplus   to 
Charge   oaok. 

Jr»   AMBACSu.        Ho* 

OoastE.    SA'STS^.      And  3^ou  4id  Chitrgs   ba-ost  in  S£-ptt3aib«r? 


Jr, 


AiJRi 


We  did. 


Ooiiaii.   SAWYIB.     JDo^js   tiiat  iiiukss   &  p^^rt  oX    Ui^it  aii"fs?rsnctj? 

Hr.   AM8AGB..      It  dcis* 

Ooauri.   SAWYi?. *     I  waa    trying   ta  account  for   the-  Vitriation 
in  hurii.      Although,  y&u  sold  aora  ^lit  -— 

Mr.   AMBA:.^»     '^'a  did  not;    sxcuaa  jas*.     W«   sold  aore  milk  in 
dollar's  and  Sisnta,    &ut    Ixiy  voiuias  sas  a«3ii®idsrai>iy  Ittss*     Kow- 
av-tr,    thy   aslllng  prioa  vma  aors   la  JJoviJiaD'-'r   than  in  Sapt-aab^sr, 
ishioii  iaaJias   th?s  dollars  '^nd  cunts  sal-5S  larger* 

3oiaai»  MOBHIfi*     I  wani-s^d  to   xniuxr&  a  iit;vli;  furtJis^ir  about 
this   ices   q[U€-Dtj.on»     Qo  you  r-aaaaibe'r  usiiat  you  liau   to  p-iiy  as   cxty 
prices  ior  ic«  iic/rw  in  th;j  aonth.  oi"  Saptsmbar?     How  auah  a 
hundrssd?  .        -.       , 

Mr.   aUSICSC.      Tou  buy   oy    r,nej   carload,    don't  you? 

Mr.   /vMBACJK.      ilo.      li  you  v^ant  lus    tc   ^'J'^t    t:i^t  figurtJ,    I   had 
bettiir  call  up    tiit:'  ori'io-^.       iiy  r <i colli* c ti on  as  |3.50  a   ton 
f #0.0.    th;i    car. 

OQom*   f^AWYIi!?.  In   Boston? 

Mr.  A^BACK.   In  Boston,  f  .o.b.  t^ie  car.  Not  i'.o.b.  our 


<i*  VyT     „.  . 


-i-  -      .--... 


24 


SOS 
plant, 

aoara.  BIRD*  i'.O.B.  on  tha   cars? 

idr.  AMBACK.   Ye», 

Comm.   SMTET?,       Who  stands  the  shJTinkage-;   you     or  tJ-iQ 

Mr,  AMBAC?!.     is'roia   thts   oar  k«j  stand   tha  sijrinJca^e. 

Oonaa.   SAIT&I?^     Well,   you  taka   tljs   oar  w#i^ts   as  daliverad? 

Mr.   iUIBAOiU     As   lo adod.  onto  our   true*:* 

Ooam.   SAWY£1?.      As  loaded  onto  your  truck;   so  thu,t   they 
otand   th&  shrinkage? 

Mr»  AIlBAOiC.        Yea. 

Oofflm.  MOB^US.     HiJw,   Mr.  Whiting,       I    understood  you  cut 
your  own  ica» 

Mr.   aHAT?L30  WklTI.-SG.        Yjs,    air^ 

CojcBKi.  HO'B'^IS.       Hoft^,    ^n   tiiie  oujcount  here,   hCi*?  havs  you 
treattid    that? 

jar.  WKITING.     The   iC'j*  v^-as  put  in  anJ.  .^iiargad  at  the    cost 
of  |i.70  pGT  ton  in  '^ci-ton  d^livarsd  at  ths  plant. 

Co/am.  MOBnIS.      rhat  is  -shat  it  cost  you  to  iiarv-jst  a  ton 

of     iG3? 

Mr.  I'HITIKG.     And  freigiit  it.     Karvsst  ana  freight  and 
stors  and  ship. 

Ocitam.  3«DHniS.     Witiiout  any  profit? 

Mr.  WKITIim.        Y3S,    sir.  • 

Mr.   GUSIOC.      Now,   Mr,    J.  K.  Whiting,   what   ao  you  say? 

Mr.   J.   K.   milTlKG,        I  T.ill   spoak  for   the  Elm  h' J.rm  .and   tta« 
Srlghaffi  Oompany.     7ii&  Sim  iarei  tarings  it©  ioe  on  cars,    snipped 
right  in  from  ths  siding «      That   coste    theai  about   12.25  a   ton 
f.o.b.    oars.      That   io   the  way    th&y  get    ail   thoir   ice.      The  Brig- 
ham  Oorapany  iauys   ice  doiiv jrad.      Uouiiljuy    Xt  h;iB  fee -'n  driliv-?red 
by    truok,    and  I    fchinjc    tiu?   iCt^-  has  baen I   tn:.n."(C  it  was  $o. 


JlsSr 


^ 


« 


;*  -s-j.-v.  ^t  ;•; 


-.::'r-   ■  '  f' 


25 


209 

Nowj   I    tilink  I  wot-ilci  Xiks   to  verify  that  if  you  want   it  acou- 

ratoly. 

Comas,  MOl^T^IS*     Mrom  whom  do  you  purchasa    tnat   ice? 

'^r,  WHITIKO.      Th<3  i'resh  Pond  Ice  aompany.      Tnat   ie    th<s   Xq& 
*&  uss    to  ice  our  oasas  tii-it  /jo  out  on   the  t^ac®.     How,    ?i<^  hava 
a  rafrigaration  plant  also,     wa  have  two    refrigoratins  s:^  ..chin*i8 
which  are  us«d  sntiroiy  for  coolin,'^   t^is  milk.     Sut  se  faavs    to 
US€   large   q.uantitias   of   ice,   pu-vinff;   crushed   ice   on   tha    cases 
that   ar9  loaded   on   the   t-^ams.      And  I    thinlc   th*-   px*actj  was  f3 
a   ton.      That  was  dslivsrad  by   tlm  j^r^ah  Pond  Ici?  Oo-apany's 
trucic  right  on  our  platform. 

Coiam.  MO'RT'IS,     Do  yoi.  purchase  any  of   it   from  B.   Whiting 
^  rsons? 

'dr,  l&lUTIITa.     3?o,    sir. 

0of!B5,   aCITBIS.     fiat    is  ail.     Mr.   H3.11att,   hosv  do  you 
fersat  youi'  iC3   acitount  iiers?     Daas    the  Hood  Oompany  harvest   its 
Own   ioe?  ^ 

i^r.  MILLSTT.       We  harv-aat   a  good  dial  of  our  own  icej   w2 
havii    t.o  buy   sonse.      I   hav^^n't   the   proportion   in  aind.      I    ao  not 
thlni:  offhand  we  buy  a  Viry  l:irg8   proportion  of  our  ica. 

Coi^n.  itO'H'RIS,       And  in  m.Jking  up  this  account,  how  is   that 
iCi?  account   treated? 

Mr.  MILLET?.      In  our  icing  charges  we   took  our  ic^^   shipptid 
from  the   coimtry   ^nd  charged  it  up, 

aoEsra,  MOI?r!l?l.      At   the    cost  of  hAiTasting  ':3.na  frei^^ht 
addtid? 

Mr.   MILLIGTT.      'llio  freight   should  ho  addad.      I   am  no  t  sure 
whs  thy  r  it  sas   or  not  in  this   casa.     Of  course   tha   icv?  we  bougnt 
Tft'S   ohargsd  in  for  what   »-3   paid  for  it. 

Conn.  iiOBRIS.        Thsrs   is  no   profit  on   tho    ice   that   is   ship- 
ped from  tha   country  charged  in? 


€ 


<l^:-^^.:i}.    ^ 


.J,-yv:.:s  '  Ji 


210 

Mr.   liillLLSTT.     No* 

Coram.   nO'R'RIS.        Well,    that   is    the   «ay  «2    73 1  at   some   of 
those  discrspanci^is  in   the   accounts. 

Ooara.   BI5D.      You  nay  you  don't  know  shdtli^r   tha  freight 
18   added   in  or  not? 

5lr.   MILLS TT.      77o,    I   do  not, 

CoHKj.   BITU).      len't    the   freight   a  p«rt  01    the   coct? 

Mr.   OU?IGK.      If  he  h'ts  hia  working  papers  hsra   hu    C£«i  tali 
you. 

Coasi.   ]£OT?I?IJ?»       Mr.   iuawkins  would  kno«, 

3oiffin.  BIBD.     Was   the  freight  ada-ad  in  to    ths   cost  of    the 
ice,   ilr.  Hawkins? 

Mr.  IIAWlClHfS.      I   can't   say  that.      I    could  give  you   soa© 
light  on  that,    in  connection  ^vith  soais  oth^cJr  casual  obsssrva- 
tione  I  hnvii  made   in   this   connection. 

Oojaia.   BI"RD.        Well,   b-^forci  w^i  ^^^t    through  I   souli  llks    to 
know  froffi  you  or  tr^m  :&c.  Mills tt-  «hetHar   tiiv  freight  v. as  adaad 
in  on  that  ics,   and  "«hat  it  «ould  hav©  amounted   to  if  it  «as 
not  add®d  in. 

Mr.  HAWKINS.        The  chaac^^s   are   it    sag,    Mr.   Bird,    but   I   am 
not  prepared   to    tell  you. 

OosQ.   aiSD.      J  would  likj    to   have   one   of  you  tell  rae    that. 

Mr.   SSABS.     Mr.   Mills tt,   h3   would  like    to  kno*  that. 

Cosaa,   BT83,     Either  you  or  iir.   Hawkins. 

Mr.  SBABS*     Mr.  iiaskins  prepared  thsse  figures. 

Oomm.   BIJRD.  Mr.   Hawkins   can  giva   that   inforaiatzon,    tiian. 

Ooam^   iiGBV.IS,     Mr.  Hawkins,    you  will  look    that  up   and  see 
whsther   teat  fr'^igrit  is  addad? 

Mr.  KAWKJSJS.     Yae,    sir,    I   v,ili  look   it   up. 

Gomai.   BI!?4>.     Mr.   Amback,    diU  you  havri   any  eurplue    in  Ilo- 
V2mb«r  in   liiess  figures?     '^as  thare  any  surplus  over   the  SX? 


211 

iflr«   .\MBA3K.     t(s  had  no  surpiue   in  Movambsr,   as  I  stattjd 
yesterday.     We  ware  so  short  ws  ii<id  to  cut  our   iritu©. 

OonjBs,  SI'S]).        Any  surplus  in  December? 

Hx',   AMB.AOIC.     We  iiad.  a,  oonsideraDlw  surplus  ia  Doo^afeer, 
incr^a-asing  vsvery  day* 

Comra,   BITID.     Well,    in   thase  figurss  whioh  you  >i;iv«j  £ivan 
to   thts  OotEfnissioTi.  for  J^oember,  ho«f  hav«  you  tr<3ats-<i  that  sur- 
pl^is? 

Jlr.   .WBACJK.      i'or  ^Tov^mbsr? 

Oomra.   BX"^.     i'or  Dsc-^aber, 

Sir.   .\HBACK.      I  his.Y*^   no  figuriss   for  DtjC'^^bsr, 

Mr.    0mi.7£*      On   that  point,   Mr,   Bird,    I  iaight   say   th.at 
in  oiirs  for  January  «e  hav-j  got  yoar  trMa  surplus,   as  agreed 
to  by   tilts  GoBKaittas;   at't«r   the  iaat  s«S3sion.      Is  thare   anything 
furth'j-r  now   t'n&t  you  want    to  say,  Br*  .tefca-ck? 

Mr.   AMBACE.        10.     . 

:£r.    aUFIOK,        Thcit    is   all. 

STAI^alHW  .BY  ^*   IiAWKIN3« 

Mr.   HA'*1CI?JS«      I   woiild  liica   to  ra.^;?;  a  8ta,teiasiit  xor    the 

r*icord,   that   up   to  this  isornin^  i  had  not   ae:;n  this  r-^port.  of 

I),   Whitings*,    50  that  I  havij  not  b*s>ja  alsl-a^   to  givy  it  th^s    saiiia 

study    thxt  D.  \fhi tings  Jaave  of   the  report  ©0^53  for  Hood,        Caauol 

obsarvation  of    these    ^.wo  reports,   ho»<5V3r,    indicata,    first,    that 

thorn  are  200,000  quarts  of  ailk  includsd  in   thair  statement 

not   included  in  ours.     That  is  represented  by   tht*   wholesaia 

pints,     i'urther  observation   injicatao   that    tha    totcil  ^xpunsas 

the 
included  in  /Whiting  stataaiant   ia  '^17H,00Q  —  approxiaattjiy 

|.17B,cco,   I  vi»iijL  ieav«  off   the  jiundreda  and  cunts   —  And  in  the 


rt  k  .t  1  f ' 


212 

Kood  stateiaent.  about   $163,000,  siakinz  a  diff Irenes  in  sxpssnae 
of  |15,Q00,     Whan  I   say  •expense"   I  aiaan  the  actti-al   coet  of 
distribution  after  thd  cost  of   the  adlk  has  been  excluded,  JTroai 
the   country  expenses  down.     How,    a  furth^ir  analysis  of    tiiat 
difference   of  115,000  shows,   first,    ths   itam  of  frei-.ht  is   in- 
cluded in   th«i  Whiting  atatdaant  at  a  figure  representing  3.6 
allls,    and   in  the  Hood   stateai-;?nt  7,2,   mAkinc  a  dirfarenca  of 

1,4  mills,  ^hich  on  2,700,000  quarts  m^k&a  IS"©©.        •j'hat  is  a 

|15,000. 
part  of   the    .,. 

Ws  go  along  a  littla  farther  and  we  find   that  the  shrink- 
age  in   the  Whiting  statement  raprosents  a  tot-al  aujount  of 
$13,809 i   while    tha    total  s'iirinkage   in   the  Hood  statcsaunt  only 
represents  08,500,   or  a  diffsrsnce  of  |5,260,    approximately. 
I  ^ould  like   to  say  in  connection  ^^ith  tha   shrinkage   that  you 
ft  ill  nots   that    there   is  $4,000  chargea'ole    to   th«   country  in  thia 
Whiting  statas^ntj    at   tha  game   tia^,    thsi-e  is  only  |600 
chargeable   to   Uia   co'ontry  in   the  Hood  statenjsnt*     As   stated 
yesterday  aftc^rnoon,    that  $4,000  charg-^abie   to   tha   country  in 
the  whitinc  statemtsnt  is  an  ^irbitrary  charge  based  on  ons-third 
of    the    total  shrinkage   in   city   ;«id  country.      I    bolieve    the 
g@ntl'3S3an  from  th^  office  of   the  accountants  for  Whiting 
stated  tJiat  it  ^as   isspossibl;?  to   ^ay  -shat   tlie  shx*inkage  was, 
but  in  aonfarencs  with   the  'ffhiting  interests    tbey  said  one- 
third  should   be    charged   to    ths   country.      I   do  not  know  how 
th-i^y   could  j-et  such  an  axwrbitant  stirinkags  charge  tharti,   but 
evidently  it  is    there.      TJiat   is  |5,260  diff'srence   on   2,700,000 
■juiirts. 

Then  another  small  item  v?hich  is  included  in   the  Uhiting 
statement  is   the  legal   and  profesaionril   eervic^.s,    |l,J?00,   while 
jin    the  Hood  sstateaient    it    is  only  IfiOO.        That  aiikes   a   total 
excss^-  charge   in   tJie  Miiting  gtatement   over   tho  Hood  statejaant 


) 


0.00?.'-    ... 


2i3 

Of  fraisht,    ehrlnJiago   and  Is^al  axponca  of  $9,600.      If  w«   d«- 

i 
duct    that  from  tha   total  C03I.   it  Ijuvoo  ti  net  difforencvi  of 

$6,000,    approximately,    m   tr.»  -jxpano©   of    tha    two   ooaiyanibC,   not 

allowing  for   the  .200,000  luarte   incluaod   in   tho   whiting  stato- 

mont   and  not   inciudod  in   the  iiood  etatament. 

How,  that  le.  a.o  far  ae  a  caauol  obedjrvation  will  i>«rmlt  m» 
to  suia  up  thaaa  ',wo  atatamwnte.  That  is  not  done  in  a  critical 
way;  it  ia  simply  to  bring  O'-it,  1  hopj,  tha  total  difXor&noe  in 
the  t«ra  Btatdxiic^nta. 

I  would  XiHv   to   say  comathing  in  conn^jction  with  this  icd 
problem.      That   s-ume    to  hav:^   caused  conaicl-jrablti   aiBOi;.s,-ion. 
I   round  nowhere  in   iJie   claaaif ioation  of  expensa  of   the  Whit- 
ings  any   charge  ff&r  ice  under   .ioliv-=ry  exyt^nee.      Vvhsn  I    cay 
■d-jllV3ry   expenaa*    I  oiaan   the    charge  for  ict*  on    tr.u   rovte   vsragon. 
Ve  have   a  conaiderabl-j    charge   lor  ice   under  aiiecullanoous  «x- 
pdnse*      Und'jr  our  miaocjlianaoua  expense   --  July  3x:jense   of 
|4,567  —  we  have   a  prstty   ,^ood   Qis^.-d  charge  for  ice. 

Comm,  SAWYET?.  Why  should  not  that  have  been  put  into  lea, 
tbfin? 

Mr.  HAWKIHS.     The ra   i3  no    c -as o if i cat  ion    to  show  where    it 
should  ba  put, 

Oomm.   SAWYi;H.      St'hy  ssfouidn't   it   D<2   iteiaiaed? 

Mr.  HA\7x:iWS.      I    can  give   you    tJrwJ   stattjaent. 

Oomci.  BrHD.      If   you  turn   back   to    th«   originjJ.  book  of 
accounting  you  wiJl  see  a  notation   that  atat-^e    that  anything 
that   is   charged  ao  miacellan-jous    shall  b.    icoompanit;d  by   an 
Itemized   atatement. 

Sir.  HAWUns.      I   would  lik-j   to   say    a  word,    if  I   may,    in 
that   connt;ction.      I    3=3e  no   itam  of  miecollaneoua  expenso    in 
thia   iclnr  atateasfent.      Perconally  I    can*t  iind«rstana    hof*  a 
company  of    that   size,   or   three   compani.a  of   that   aire,    co.ld 


214 
pos:3ibly  hiv$  sxpenaas  that  would  not  be  included  undsr  mia- 
oellnxi^oxm*     Anybody  with  any  accounting  sense  at   all  would 
— w«^.         kno¥^   that   this  dasatf  icat  ion  ia  entirely  inadaiuata,    and  to 
not  have  a  classification  of  misc villaneous  wxp^nsas  is  b-yond 
lay  comprehonsion.     I  havs  had  certain  experience   in  that  mat- 
ter.    Now,  W3   can  give  you  a  statement   of   th*^  ffiieojlianaotis 
charges    Included  h^re.     Thy.t  is,   ws   can  <jive  you  a.  etAtement 
of   the   total  mlscailanijous   charges,    ond   thon  this   is  a  propor- 
tion bioad  on  the  proportion  of   rjuarts  of  xailk  shown  in   t>iat 
Stattjisent   to    the    total   -^uarta  of  zailk  hanilsd   in    th-3  plant 
within    f-hc*   city, 

Comm,  Bli^D.     How  anich  of    that  .miscalianaous  expense  you 
h-xva  QOt  thars   is  accounted  for  by  ico? 

Mr,   JLAWI^Il^S.      I    gave    it    to  you  last  night;    I    juat    forg^^t, 
I  don't  know  -dhother  it   «as  $1,100  or  |1,900. 

Oomm.  BOJ).     Well,    that  is  a  knovm  item  of  ice,   and  why 
oan't  it  i>3  oh'irged   in  whera   it  ii^lon^s? 

Mr,  KAI&KIH!^,      Sacauss   tha   ic^  on   ^Jxj   routes   is   not    tlys 
city  sxpenss,    it   is    a  dslivsry   exp^nss. 

OoHiXn*   BIHD.     Why  not  nut   it  in  as   a.  d^illvo-■ry   i-xpense? 

Mr,  EAsiKIH*?*      It   is.      It   is  im-ier  miscellaneous    in  2iy 
statement,-  ll^^^OO  for  ica  on   the  routes*     i'or  ice  used  on 
t>:ie    routes   —   that   ie,    in    tha  Hood  Company. 
(OhairKian  Allen  arrives.) 

Oomra,   311?!),      |l,900,    you  eay? 

Hr.  flAWJClHG*     '^es,    sir*     ^h^-n  I    say   il,90C,    tr^ut   is    tiis 
total  charge  for  ice  lander  total  niscellaneeus  tjxptinsfcs,   a 
proportion  of  which  would  only     b-    includt;d   in   these.      We  had 
to  apportion  these  betv^oen   the  Kdlk  included   in   thic  Btateaunt 
and    the    total  jnilk  handled  in  ths  plc-jits  or  on    tht.  routes, 

Doijua.    BPRS.     'Cill  you  givo   us   an  itc*miseu   statement  of 


i     .    -.i:.        :  IV  >.. 


nii 


«  •-  V     ..   B-  ■ 


{  *eA;'Vi'';i/ 


■3  ••• 


:>  '■■  ■^^ ' 


m 


i 


215 
the  mi8celian®ou3  expetiiss  ujidvr  country  <jxi:vansso,    city   sx- 
pdnses^   and   d<iliv-3ry  expensss? 

Mr.   HAmiH5.  .  f<3    jan  do   that.     lat  me    a8l£  you  this  for  ajy 
information;   do  you  %unt   the  proportion  of  aach  of   those  mis- 
celianeons  expenses  that  aro  aiida  up  in^o    that   total;    do  you 
want    tha   total  and  then  shov;  you  the  proportion  as  wa  made   it? 

Ooasm*  BXrti).     Yes.     I  v/ajit   tiie   to  tcJ.  and   than   Ui«    oro portions 

Mr,  HiiS?K.Iii3.     /Ol  rigrkt;   v..-e  v*ril.l  £.lvi.  you  that* 

Oomu*  EI"RX>,      I  want    lo  know  feliat   Goui^rlSi&s    this   sua.- 

Hr,  KAWICIMS.      Of   i4,367,«4? 

Co^n.  BITID.     V'Sry  nts^iriy  |7,000  of  aussolianeous  djtp'snsea. 

Mr,   HAjVIvIlf;^.     Wh^t   is    that? 

Cftffirti.   BI*HD.      I   '=vant    to  i:no?i  what  coaprlsJS   this  virtually 
^j,500  or  |7,C00  of  misudXisriaous  expane^. 

Ut*  H.AWKX>5r;v     ^^11,   -*5}  ?fiil  ^ivi  yo-u   tho^o,   ^r.  Bird,      I 
woul'i  liic>5   to  aak  tiie  tjusstion  also,    if    t.\a'?r^i   are  any  items 
of  fflisoeXl-'m-:sous  ^^xp^-nsa   inoludsd  —  7.'her«=  ar-j   ta^y   included? 
'l   woiila  lik^:.'    to  know.     Ther3   ia   a  lot   of  y^uff   in   th-^.T^.     I 
can*  c  Q&a  how    tji*:   olassifioation  aa  pr-iscribed  cc-..ad   b3  coa- 
i>loie  enouijii  to    tak9   care  of   ail  thi  exp^rtso  of  a  mLXk  coui- 
pany  oiT   th'it   sisij, 

Mr»   0USI;3E.     W9   can*  L  hiilp    ^hat,   J^,   H-Jii/lrins* 

Mr*   EAWi:Bf3.        Whatf 

iir«   OUSICSi.     'iv^Q    can't  hslp  yo^;r  inability  ?;o  unlijrstand. 

^r.  HAV#;I>J5.     As  etatssd  bafors,   I  have  no*    coon    this 
sta.<:ama»nt  until  this  aorniiig.      That   xf   oil  I    can   oav. 


Thtir^i  viae  onu  honaacl  to   yo^j.  ys^jtorday.      It 


»?as  iiandiia  to  Mi*.  Sears* 

iir.  liAViKTKS.      Wail,    i    tall  yov.  I    aa-   it  this  morning. 

aoi3ia.   BII?D.     Mr,   Hi-v.-iianD,    if    thsr^   ia  no   obj  iction   by   the 
Oha-lrman,    «b   want   th,?   infon-aatlon  in  r-jfurbTna^   to   thosa  r?iattv$rs 


J 


20.6 

of  misG^ilAneous   *-   Uih  lack   of  nlacallandoue  it*=ais   in    the 

Whiting  state^iidnt.     Why  don't  you 

hlr,   HAWKITfS.      I  would  lik'3    to   g^t    trie   inforsiation.      I   am 
not  suffioisntly  Jtamiii-ir  v»ith  this  Whiting  statement 

Coaa*  BIKD.      WoJJ.,  wa   ara  very  mush  intar<JSted  in  trying 
to  find  out  ^hare   the  diffQrsnces   coaa. 

Mr,   KAWKIN?.     WbXX,    you  zni.^ht   asic  th»  luestion. 

Mr.  OUSiaE.     Mr»   P&ri;.ins,    t-iii  the  Ooramission  anything  you 
can  about    tha  aatter. 

Mr.   PSBfclHS.      I   will   be   si-id   to    tell  any  thing  I    can.      It 
is   the  old  eae$,   v-r-ry  acadaEiic,    it  strikes  icq.     Wiian  p^itopie 
arc   sarslsss  or  lo  not  know  'i:'n^re  a  thing  balon,?G   tiiey  put  it 
in  raiscelianeoiiS*     ThQ   instructions  »ar»  when  wa   started  in 
here-    t.c   avoid  BJiecell.incous  accounts  as  jsv.ch  as  possible.  They 
a.re  a  dviapine  ground*      Put  thesi  xvhwre    tney   belong.      Our  object 
was  to   avoid  ffiiscsiian-30us  accounts* 

OoaBS*  BIHI).  i)o  you  faoi  that  this  accounting  as  outlined 
by  th3  ::JomiJiission  i3  sufricisntiy  cojajrehenslva  to  coVi-r  evtry 
account  without  any  laiscellaniious  account? 

Mr.  PEHLINS.  I  beiiava  eo.  I  would  not  say  it  could  not 
b3  iinprovt?d,    of  courBS* 

CoEBS.  BIED.     Then  in  allocating  Qomv  of    thess  things  you 
naturally  havij   baen  forced    to  uct^  an  arbitrary  allocation? 

Mr,   P>irFS'riNS»      In  a  good  aany   cases. 

C/Omm,  BIHD.      Your  jucigiaent   as   to  wa^ra    t^iey  went, 

Ur»   P]S"REIHS.      In  a.  good  ushy   oanes   tnat  ir   so. 

Oornm*  BlrlD.     Not  based  antiryly  on   tn^f   fact,   but  as    to 
your  Judgsant  where   it   ghould  go. 

Mr.   PEBKIHS.      i^omu  cne*s   judgmint,   y^s. 

woam.   MOt?"^IS.      You  coula  not  maki    th'i    classification 
strictly   according   to  our  outiin-i,    but  you  had    to  usa  your 


i 


"..•* 


2Jl7 

judgiaant  as   to  undir  what  item  it  ebould  hs  placed? 

Mr.   PSHKIHS.     Oh,    no;   I  ?/ould  not  like  to  answer  tiiat 
way,   no.     We  put  evej*y thing  in  accordance  with  the  outline  from 
the  vjry  hi^t   information  ftd  could  get. 

CoiffiB.  '^QW^IS*     There  sight  t>a  so»»3  diff^ryncis  of  Ofjinion 
as   to  flfhere  a  certain  i^sm  csi^ht  go? 

2Jr,   PJiRf:iNS.     That  would  bs  probably    true. 
Oomra.    BI"^!).      I    can*t   see  ho«  it  would  ba   possiblo    to  have 
no  s)i3cellaneou8  accounts  at  all.     if  a  person  arbitrarily 
allocates    zoms   of    these  things  to   an   account  —  p-^r  son  ally  I 
have   not  b-;i^n   able   to  get  along  without   a  miscsllansous   accoujit. 
I  try   ^o  itsHp  it    as  low  ae  I  possibly  can.      I    think  you  aro 
psrf^ctly  right  when  you  pay  it  is   a  di.vmpi.nQ  r^ro-umx*     But   the 
only  way  I    can  sss  hoiw    the  siacellansous   account   could  bo   don© 
av»ay  vith  antirely   is    07  an   entirely   arbitrary    illosation. 
Now,    you  have   allocated  those;      as  I   undi^r stand    ths  Hood  O021- 
pany,    there   are    certain   things   they  have   not   rs^le   any   effort 
to    illoca^e.      They  hive  oiaply  put    th@«i  into  miscellaneous. 
Is    that   it,   Mr.   Hawkins? 

Mr.  KAWKIFS.      I   do  not   think  it  its  fair  to   gay  wy   did  not 

maka   an  effort.      Thay  did  maJce    an  effort,      t    shouict    say    taking 

that  clatssif ication  of   accoion's  and  trying  to  aiaks  up    2.  state- 

ffiont   on  that  basis  from  th-s   books  or    ^driQ  il.   P.  Hood  Oonii^any 

v^ry 
*m8  a^trying  proposition. 

;dr.   PiSrfMNS.     Ws  will  admit  that, 

Hr.  KAWillTS.     And  particularly  wien  thjr;?  ivas  no   att-jrmpt 
to   analyaa    th':*    accounts  for   the  p\a*pos^s   of    thic   classifica- 
tion.    You  might   ask  yourselves  how  it  would   be   pocnible   on 
th3  3Cth  day   of   Au^rust    to   take   a  brnnd  new   classification  of 
s,ocount8   and  apply   It   to   3'our  busin-i-se  on    the  first   of   Sop  Kam- 
bar. 


:■.>';  sii- ,.  V, ■*    -^n  ii-''.f  t 


Ht:  .  ■■: 


zm 


OoEun,   3l'9J2*   I    think    the  C-om-^isslon  30.1  realiaa   it  is  a 
Vi-^ry  aifficiiit  'iiiing:  to  do. 

Mi%   HAWKXNS.     But   vyt!   did  exercise  a  lot  of.    thought    and 
judgntnt  on  the  jsatt«r,    and  when  I    inoluddd   this   lt<irz  of   ice 
tmd i=r  niRcellanaouy   3.-: counts,   you  ■will   see  —   that   is,    in   the 
delivery  -expense  --  if  ycai  could  toil  .'se  any  place  w:-srs   it 
wf>uld  go  iind<3r  daliv-jry  oxi:>«nss   I  woiJld  like    ^-o  know,     fhat  is, 
th-s   ice  ui'id  f>n  the  routas,   ice-  chargeable    to    the  routes.     I 
do  not  a6«3  any  account   th-srs   to  which  I   could  charge  up  ice, 

Of>«CB.   SAWYSB.     Whera  would  you  put   that,    >Ir«   Parkins? 

ar.   PST^IWS.     In  plant  ics*     Most  of   that  ics  th:>   .goes 
on   th*?  rout'as   is   th*   ice  vee6    to  jjack  th3   ca33S»     Now,   it  is 
the   old  pro'olem  of  whether   tha   cont-iinar  is  sailing  expanse 
or  manufacturing  expense.      If  you  pacK   something  in  your 
I  factory  in   -x  box  it  is   lisuaily  ocnBlderiid  a  manufacturing 
axpensaj    if  yoii  padk  it^in  your-  shipping  rooE  in  a  box    to  ship 
it  out   it   is  selling  expense.     Is  the   icin^;  ajcp^ns*  of   contain- 
45  rs  on   the-  i^agona  a  man  ul"  as  taring  axx>«ase  or  a  delivery   sx- 
jnmoe^     We  lookad  at  it    ib  a  manuT  set  tiring  ^Jtouns-s,   bicsuse 
that   is   th?*  only  place  thAt  the  accounting  appeared   to   provide 
fr.r  it,    ciKd  ^6  iacludisd  it  in  plant  a5tp!?nea8, 

CoffiB.   SAWYSH.      You  msan,    in   city  exp'^snsas? 

Mr.   FITRKIHS.      Yes. 

Oosi-n.   SAWYSTR.      Included   in  refrigerating  «xpsns8,   putting 
it  in  deliviiry  expense? 

lir<,   F3BKIKS.        v^s. 

Oosira,  MOB^aS.        1    things  that  fairly  v/«ll  explains   the  dif- 
ference  in  thcs  ice  5£ccoimts.     I  wish  vte  could  gi't  at  sois^  of   the 
other  accovmts  aa  wsll  as  we  hava  th«  ica  account. 

Mr.  OUSI(^.        I    think,  Hr.   Chairman,   you  can  if  yov.  have 
a  stateffient  macie  by  Mi-.  Hawkins  of   the   -in tries  ana  hi3  alloca- 


?•  ■  '  •:  ■■     ■•.  "• 


2X9 

tion  of   thos®  sntiree  that  I  ask^d  you*      IT    tbose  stiitsmsnts 
are  aliocared  and  tha  tjntriea  taken  frtym.  ths  books,    and  how  he 
got  £,t  it,   in  siy  opinion  it  '*ili  ahoss  you  at  ones  shethwr   thare 
has   bsen  ixny  ^i stake  made  or  not.       And   tixat  tJaen  will  bring 
thea  vary  cios^    together.      I    io  not  put  au^iy  stooit.  in   this  stuff 
about  legal   ^nd  prof osg ion ;\1  expenses   that  h»  put  in  there* 
That   is  a  hit. 

CoiE^i*  M£n?BIS«     liJ'li,   I   suppose  it  »as  pot  into  the  cost». 

Mr.   CUSIOK.      I  would  like   to   ask  Kr.  Hiiwkins  hO'^'  he   siadd 
up    that   itsa  of  legal  and  professional  expanse? 

Mr.  KAWKIKS*     Ws  got  the  best  judgment  of    the  h*   P.  Hood 
Oompony  of   the   total  annual  ^<2xpen8@  for  Isigal    ind  prof-assional 
oervic^s,    which  is   about  |i2,000   a  year,    :jnd  ^»   included   $1,000 
as  oiiT  legal     ©xpunss,  $627  of  ^hich  is   the     proportion  to  al- 
locate   to   thia  Eli  Ik. 

Mr*  OUSIOK.^      That  is,   you  allocated  yovr  legal  expenses 
to  buttermilk,    crvam,   and  tha  rest  of   the  business,    did  you? 

Mr.  EAWKIKS.        Absolut«ily, 

Mr.  GUSICK*     Weil,    that  ie  not  dons  here.     What  is  their 
other  profescionai  expanse?     What  is  thsrs   to  coT<ir  your  caoaa 
in   court,   your   costs,   dXid  so  forth?     'iih.y  didn't  you   talcs    those 
in?     We  had  to,  ,  . 

Kr,  KAWIINS.      i   will    tell  you  how  we  did  it, 

Mr.   OUaiOK.      That   ie   right   thera.      Where   did  you  put  your 
legal  !sxp«ns<»s;  whars   did  you  put  your  cost  of  v/rits,    yoi^r 
legal  sxpensse  in  court,   oxdcutianp,  .aid  eo  forth? 

Sir.  KAWKIHS.        I   f/ill  cfiak©   the  statement  again   that  ^.e 
took  |12,000  as   the    averaga    total  legal  and  profyesional   Ssir- 
vices  of   the  ii,   ?•  Hood  ::!;ompany  and   allocated  ono-twolf  th  of 
that   112,000  legal   and  professional  3orvic«iS  for    the   entire 
businiiss,   f627  of  which  ie   the  part  allocated   to  this  milk 


(,„  ^:r- 


€ 


220 
included  in  this  statsmsnt.     Tteat    include©  all  professional  and 
legiil  expenses, 

CoEBfj,   M01??IS»      liiat   statemant  is   plQin   to    th'S   aosHRission, 

Mr»  aUSICHK.  But  this  it^a  is  Isgstl  and  profsssional  ex- 
panse. It  includies  somathing  else  beaides  services.  We  havg 
got   a  numb-^r  of  dollars  of  accountants   in  tter©. 

Cojsm.  M0"5I?IS.     Do  you  object   becauscJ   it   ie   so   small? 

Mr.  OUSXC^.  Yes;  I  think  it  ought  to  ba  larger;  I  t-iink 
it  is  larger. 

Ooanri.  BIBS.     Mr.  Hawkins,    that   covers   tha  sntirw  legal 
expense  of   tha  Hood  Company,   including  all  court   costs  and 
everything  that  goes  into   that,   besides  actual  rem-jnaration 
for  attorniys,   and  so  forth  —  all  expanses? 

Mr.  SAiKIWS*     That   is   the  baat   inforjsation  a3  got  covering 
this. 

Oornm.   BIBD.     I   did  not   luits  understand,   Mr.  Hawkins, 
when   you  spoks   of   t^e    amount  of   shrinkaga  of    tlie   whiting  Oors- 
pany.     You  spok"^  of  an  arbitrary  allocation   to   tha   country 
expense  and   to   fh&   city  sxpi^nss? 

Mr.   HAWKISS.     Yes,    sir. 

Oomm.  BITtD.      I  was  trying   to  look   it  up   as  you  spoka  and 
I    only  made   partial  notos  hers.      But  you  say  that    th<s  JBciterial 
difference  bstw^an   ths  Hood  Company's  shrinkage   in   Ui-j    coLUitry 
ana    the   iJ-hiting  Oomj)any's  mrikee  a  difference  in   tii«   country, 
as  I   understand  you,   of  |5,260. 

Mr.  KAWKIHS.      Biffrjrence  of   tot^a   shrinkage. 

Oorara.  Bll^i).  That  is  what  I  *ant(3d  to  get  at.  In  other 
words,  tiiw  ishitings*  total  shrinkage  was  ;:0,2GO  sr-^attir  than 
tha   Hood  Company's   total   shrinkage? 

Mr.  HAIKIMS.     That   ia  accord ini?    to   Miese   statements. 

Ur*   CUSICK.        Mr.  Amback,   «.hat  do  you   eay  about  shrinkage? 


^ 


221 

Mr,   AMBAC2K.      I  notice    the   shrinkage   on   the  II*    P.    Uood  * 
Sons  ehaats  shows  a  total  of  approxtma t*3ly  2.^  on  country 
and  city  addad  togethar.      Judging  from  the  axperi^nca  In  our 
business  —  ths  only   thing  on  which  I   can  speak  —  our  shrink- 
age averages   considerably  higher  than  that.     I  would  liice  to  ask 
Mr.  Millett  *hat  he   thinks   the  shrinkage  of  the  Ji.   P.  Hood  & 
Sons  Oompany  is.     Poughly.     Do  you  think  it  is  mors  or  liss 

than  2.7X  ? 

Mr.   MILLSTT.     I  do  not  think  it  is  any  mora  than   that. 

Mr.   AMBAOl.      Ours  has   aLsays  run  more   than   that. 

Mr.   OUSICK.      it  might  b-s   int-srusting  to  you  -xnd  I   will  give 
you  figures  of  actual  shrinkage  for  1916,   1917   and  1918.      ifor 
1916,   on  1,471,653  cans  the  shrinkage  v»a3  4.60^;   in  1917,  on 
1,273,580  cans    the?   shrinkage    sas  4.10X;    ^nd   in  1918,    t<m 
sonths,   on  1,054,999  cans,    tha    siu-inkiga  was  3.99X»      A  further 
analysis  of   this   shrinkage  dxirins  those  three  years  indicates 
that  of   that  shrinkage  S.36X  ''^as  eithssr  short  •»3ii^ht  or  un- 
filltid   cans.      Mow,    I  niijht  say   that  rauoh  of   this  lailk  was  L.O.L. 
milk,     Ws  have  Xisen  investigatin.s  this   thing  vary  c  iref  ully. 

OosEi.  HO^"r?IS.     Th083  figursB  ars,    by   tha  -7 ay,   from  Whit- 
ings*   bonks? 

Mr.  aUSIca^,     ISO  I    this  is  froEj  tha  lila  ^'arm  Milk  Oompany. 
I  had  th©sa  srorking  on   that  for  some    tiase,    'in:i    that   is  actual. 

Gosras.  MOHBin.     Well,   h::isn*t   tiiis   shrinkiig^  due    to  iinfiJ-lad 
cans   ta^m  eliminated  no»? 

Mr.   CUSICK.     W(9  are  doin^  soma   good  on  it.     You   3««,    th« 
last    ten  months  was  3.99  p^^r  cent,   brinsinf,  it  down.     Sut  you 
will  gat   shrinkJigti   botii  in  weight  ani  cans  yat. 

Comm.  MOH'iUS.      Well,   thd  first  years  there  you  bought   oy 
t,he  can,    didn't   you? 

Mr.   OUSIOK.      Oh,   no{    thex'O   has  not  \>e<in  much  differanca 


V    r-  ■ 


222 
between  1916   and  i*Jl7.     The   rsason,  on  your  L.O.L*   was  because 
aome  of    the  Eijest  j-^irm  silk  was  bought  from  0.   Srighaas    "^oapany. 
Ali    the  aillk  we  have    traded  in  is  practically  L.C.L^    shiprs^nts. 

Oomm,   MO"R!?If?«     Wall,   hasn't   there  baon  a  chance  laade  with- 
in  two  or  t.hre«  yc»ara  as    to    the  n^thoiis  or  buying?     ijoraurly  a 
ean  was  a  can,    wh^jther  it    sas  filled  olaar   to    th©    top  or  not. 
Ko?j   it   is  done    by  weight.      That   would  practically  eliminate 
shortage  on   account  of  xinfillad  cons. 

Mr,   COSICK.     Ho  J    t.hare  is   the  handling. 

OoBm»  MO"R"RIS.     I'sjll,    tns  a^Lndlxns^  »vouid  be  dus    to    tiie 
waste  in  handling    ind  not    to    thti   unfilled  cans  at   th«  f^xna. 

Mr,   OUBIQY.0     That  is  all   true;   but  do  not  call  that  waste. 

CoflEn.   wyR'915*     I    :ia  not  spsa^ing  ox   saots   except   as  neces- 
sary -sriSte, 

Mr.   '^USICK*      It  was  going  on    tha  record.     The  point     is 
that  when  wxs  take    tiiie  mXlk   and  put   it   t/irough  our  paste\iriz«j;rs 
some   of   th  it   water  gois  off.      How,  we   are  majsing  quita  a  con- 
siderable study  of   that   to  find  out  how  ttiat  can  be  r.ciaimad. 
But  you  are  getting  into  a  vary  nice  proposition  whi^n  you  are 
doing  that.     Ws  'nave   not  reached  it  yet,   but   y.'s  are  going  into 
it.      And  another  thing,  Mr.  Morris,    that   is  vary   important  is 
th«  purchase  of  bottles.     Wa  have    been    troubled  a  .^ood  daal 
since    the    stir  on   that.      Tiitfra   is   a  tolerance  alio«iJci,-  must 
necessarily   be,-  in   the  manuf :AOttjr«  of  glass   bottles.      Ther&   is 
a   tolarance    allowed  in  filling    tnose   bottl=»s  which,   ftiien  mul- 
tiplied by  the  million   as   thay   ard   filled,  makers  a  whole  lot 
of   differjnccf   in  voliime.      If   you  ha.pp'sn    to   get   a  car  load  of 
bottles  wher«3    the    toleranco  runs    to    tha  maximum,    an.i  using 
th'^g'3  bottles  you  get  Just   a  trifle  ovwr  your  IG  ounces   to 
the    luart  bottle   —  if  you  ware    to  uso   it   by  weight  —  now, 
that  is  an  infinitesimal  diffar^^ncd,   but   if    nnat   is  multiplied 


223 


80  ofton,    in    the   long  run  it  miikd©   ths   voium^ij   that   you   Cciil 
Shrink ige.      And  I    think    that   is  one  of   th-3   most  important 
places   to  look  now  for  shrinkage. 

Mr.  iiasrkins,   what   is  your  perosntagw  of   coiattry  shrinkage? 

Mr*  HAWKIWS.     Ch,    it   ia  aoout   a   niaird  of  one   p-ar  cent,    I 
think;    anci    Ui^   city  shrinkage  ig  about  three  p^r  cent,  I    think. 
(Intormiosion. ) 

Ooaaa.  MOPHIS.     There  are  a  Tew  tiungs,   .gentlaaen,    that 
aro   troubling   tile  Ooaimission  in   the  short  sxecutivs  session 
that  s!.a  havs  had    th«f  last  fa»v  lainwtaa.     On#  t.hing  that  is 
troubling  the  OoBsaisaion  is    tha  lueetidn  of   raising  tne   x>ric© 
of  milk  to   the  pubiie  at   tJ'iis    titats   beyond   the  present  pra.C'sa, 
and  its  gifn«ral  effect  upon   ths  buslnaas,-  whether  or  not  xt  is 
not  batter  both  for  the  producars   ani  for   th>;3  distributors   to 
taka   go«j3  loss,    if   they  h'^y%  to,   during  tnesQ   three  saonths, 
with  a  recoupfiiant  later  on,   than   to   try   to  increase    the  price 
of  lailk   ■  o   t>i8  public  at    tliis   tiaa^j   and  sui'far    the   i5on8s;i\iant 
effects  upon   th:^   gansrai  busin-ssa.     Tlow,   i    think  that   luastion 
is   a   real  probiea  --  ah  i-^ast    thtj  Ooaamiasion  essas   ~o  think  so. 
'or  oourse  your  figur-is,    both  Mr.  Patt^a's   and   thv    dealsrs*  ,    , 
would  inciicate    tiiat   the   OofiKoisaion  had   goz  to    incrdose   the   prica 
of  milk  for   the   naxt   three  months  ht^re,    if  wa   take    zhe  fij^ures 
'absolutely   as   fimy  have    os-an  presyntad   to   the   Gonsmission.      In 
going  over  our  f  igur&s  last  January  fe3  has  a  spr-v-ad  of  C   cents — 
the  dsaiere  did  —  on  fcimily  milk.     Thera  is  now  a  spr-5iid  of 
6-3/%.        That  maknQ  an  incr^^jase  of   about   ISX  ^^   tho   cost  of 
distribution.     Whathar  or  not   the   cost  of  dietribution  h;is 
increacsd  more   than  I2X  during   the  yo-ar  is   soeiuthing  for  us  to 
think  of.     In  addition    to   that,   a  ya^xs'  ago  you  were  carrying 
tha  surplus  —  to  bc3   sure,    the  figuros  showed  a  loss,      3o  that 
this  yo.ir  if   ths  svorplus  plan  is   in  operation  during   thy   thrtsa 


^eiii&c 


224 

months  you  would  b«  r«^liav©d  of    the  surpiue,    in   addition   to 
gst-ing  about  1.2 ■C  increase    in  th=   spraad:        So   that  your  in- 
crease wouiat  be    conaid«rabiy  more    trian  12X»   probably,    on    the 
entire   8pr«ad. 

Theso  aatttJro  I    sp^afc   of   at    this    timt;   as  baing  sorai  of    the 
problaas    that  are   troubling   the  Commission.      And  in  ref^srenoa 
to  Mr.  Pattee's  plan  of  modification  of  the  anrplus  plan,   one 
qu«aation    <-hat.    troubles  ub   is  whether  or  not,  with   the  lifci   of 
the   Commission  liaitod  as   it  is,    it  is  bast    to    try    to  maec« 
changes  at    this    ti2»    tiaat    to  our  mind   preeant  problems      of  vast 
difficulty   in   ivoricing  out,-  probl^jne   that  dvill  take   some    time 
for   the  OosEaission   to   i«ork  o^jt.     '^liether  or  not   the  dealers  and 
ti^a   producers  aight  not  ^.-ork   that  probl-^m  out  among   tjieaselvt^e 
rather  than  to  lo>ave   it    to    tlis   Coaamission    to    try    to   deal  with 
in    thj  very   short  time    that  %e  have  left   in  whioh    to   d-^al  with 
it.      I    think    the   CoiffisiaRion  feels   as  a  whole,   without  stating 
any   ruling  whatvsver,   or  expressing  any  opinions  except   p--rhaps 
individual  opinions,    that    there   is   a  real  problem  in  what  Mr* 
Pattee  has  prossnted    to    the  Commission;    that  if  it   could  b« 
worked  out   it  would  %ork   to    the   b^nafit  of  ev<^rybody.      But 
whether  the   Commission  wxll  undertake   to   solve    that  problem 
rssiains    to  be  seijn  when  we  gat   into  executive  session.      I  wish 
it  might    be  work«d  out    among  your salves. 

There  is  ajioth;Jr  thing  thai  has  bdc;n  discussed  among  the 
ssrabers  of  the  Commiaeion,  and  that  is  tha  question  of  future 
recommendations,  orij  of  which  is  that  there  might  possibly  be 
uniform  l-^^islation  in  the  NijwEngland  states  which  might  per- 
petuate iacoramission  for  tjiie  handlin^-  of  these  xnilk  probljina. 
Of  cours-  the  lawyers  here  will  appreciate  the  fact  tnat  there 
is  a  i'ederal  law  known  as  th«i  anti-trust  law,  ana  that  l<i£LB~ 
lation  would  have    to   b^  framed   in  reference    to    that  law,    and 


c^>  ■..;;,.  "'■'  :•■■ 


'ejjiJeq 


225 

probably    any  commission    that,   could   be   or^^at'^d   hf  state  iaasrs 
would  only   be  sort  of   a  board  of  arbitration,    it.  could  not  be 
a  price  fixing  board.     That  is,    I   am  inclinad   to   think  it 
could  not  be  a  price  fixing  board  as  '^e  have   been  a  prica  fix- 
ing board  during  war   tiae,-  unier  war   tiine  juaasures.     But  it 
might  possibly  ba  a  board  of  arbitration,   and  by  uniforai  legis- 
lation in   the  N3W  £ngl.and  f?tat'aa  it  might  bs  tolpful   to   Uio 
milk  buninc-ss  of  W-r*  Sncland.      And   if   any  of  you  have   any   id^jac 
on  th9.t   luee^.ion,  we  would  liks   to  bear  them.     Of  course  that 
board,   in  case  of  matters  being  sent   to  it  for  arbitration, 
might  be  able   to  fix  what   in   thsir  judgment   «(as  a  fair  pric^ 
for  n)ilk,    and   in  that  way  it  ajight  to  some  sxtont  be   a  price 
fixing  bo:;trd;    but  not  a  regularly   conetitAitsd  bo;ird  for  fixing 
pricss. 

What  I  h^ve  said  hara   is  not  said  with  the   idea  of  indicat- 
ing what  our  final  decision  will  be   in  any  matters,   because  »e 
have  not  gone   into  executive  session ;   but  I  am  just   stating 
this  publicly  so   that  before  you  i^iave   tim  room  you  will  know 
some  of  the   luastions  that  hav«  bean  uppermost  in  our  ainds. 
ifhat  final  result  is  reached  will  be  announced  later. 

^r.   CUflCK.       May  I   call  your  attention   to    this  fact, 
now    that  you  have  got  your  figures  right   before  you?     You  go 
back   to   oua-  Exhibit  56,    I    thjLnk  it  was   —  you  havs  got   it  ail 
there.     You  h^vy   got  your  volume,    you  hav>'  got  your  costs,    and 
for  ths  month   ofJanuary  ■i^ou  h:iV3  your  actual  costs* 

Oofflm*   aOS'RIS.        56   ^as  your  cost  shaets? 

Mr*   CUSIGK.      January,   is'ebruary   and  March  of  191B, 

Oonmi.  MO'R'^IS.     We  have   them. 

Mr.   OUSIOK.      And  then  with  th.it   you  h.iv^    t>io   actual  fig- 
ures  of  v.hat   it   cost    to  do    thf*   business   in  January  on    tha  unit 
basis  which  was  given  you  for  comparativd  purposes.      I  h^vs 


■o   dtaor.  e:\i-  -lo' 


226 

got  soma   old  papors  here,   but   I    txj.ink  they  will   correspond  with 
what   you  have   got  —  I   do  not  h::ipp8n  to  have  mina  with  laa;    they 
are   at   the  office.     Tub  singular  thins  is   that    ths   country 
estpensas  and   tho  xinit  «xp0n9«?8  —  this   ic   the  country  —   th-^ 
assaabling  costs,    the   total  city  expanse,    the    total  dv-livary 
expense,    without  adjninistrar.ivs   axpenss,   which  you  put   in  your 
new  classirioation  —  it  will  app^^ar  that   tJae   cost  for  pro- 
c<^S8ing  :xnd  distribution  of  a  ^taart  of  milk  then  was  estimated 
to  ba  5.11  cante.     You  sers  sp^aiking  about  12X«      It   is  now 
8«62  in  ours,    in  ths  Whiting  sheots;    in  the  Aldan   sheets  it 
is    •0B53;    in    the  Hood   shafts    .0716.      jj'urtheraiors,      your  storas 
was  2.C66   in  January  of    this  y3ar  —  last  January;    and  your 
hotels —   that   corresponds  now  ^ith   the   sins   —  ^as  2.22.   ?Jow 
they   are   in  the  Whiting  sheets   5.G1  and  4.53.      In   the  Alaan 
sheists,   6.16   --    that   is   as  he   hxxs  got  it  hsra,    but  it  undoubted- 
ly moans    .0616,    and   .0462.      In   th^  Hood  shafts,    your  present 
clissif ication,    .049977  and   .045783.      Uov.,    uou  san  rnoka   your 
calculations,    and  cny  Judgmsnt   is,   vvithout   "oing  into    that, 
that  you  will  get  from  75    to  100;!'  higher  on  the   actual  costs. 
That  is  my  judgm-o-nt.     But  I   cm  giving  you  tJis  figures  so  that 
you  will  't-jxv^   ti-tem  on   th^   rucord. 

Coffim.   E01?l?IS.     Kavfj  you  anything   to   say   about    the  .2;enerai 
effect   upon   the    buainessi,    both  as    to    tha  production    md.  distri- 
bution of  r'tieinf-:   ti-ie  prices   at    tha  present   time? 

Mr.   CUSIOK.      Would  you  give  us   two   or    tiir&e  minutes    to 
consult  with  our   clients   on    that   subjc;Ct?     I    think   then   ive 
might    say   soi^cf thing   to  you  thut  ¥.oulci  perhaps  be  of   some    in- 
terest. 

Oomm.   iiOBPIS.        Yes. 

Ml'.   OUBICK*      I   do  not  like    to    take   a  stand  on   a,  policy 
^u&e'^^ion  v<ithout   consulting  with  them. 


- "fl  ■.  ■ . 


t:,f. 


S7 


aojarn.  HOT?T?IS.     I    fJ-iinl-s  it   is  a  real  policy   lueetlon. 
Xr.   QUi-IGK.      It    ie  a  policy   luestion.      But,   rvmsaber,   -^e 
have  had  a  hard  year.      Tl^at.  is  for  thaa  to  consider, 
(Short   intarsiisGion. ) 
}ur.  SEA3?S.     I    think  our  people  have   :i  very  decidad  opinion 
about  it. 

C!h=ilrman  ALLSS»       L^t  us  haar  it  nf:i^, 

i£r«  MILLSTT.      Your    luijstion,   '^*   Ohairman,    ricie  on    tha   effi^c 
on  susinsss  of  a  raiss  in  pi'iOQ  juf^t  now? 
Chairman  AILETT.       Tee. 

Mr.  MIIXSTT.     ^'or  mxt  m<m*-.h,   for  Instance.     Wo  hav$  not 
any  question  at  ail  but   what   tha<;  would  be   a  vsry  dangerous 
thing.     1(3  do  not  baliev®  it  should  bs  done*.     We   do  not  bcli.ive, 
naturally,   that  ^3  shoxild  be  sxpaotad  to   ^ork  for  nothing.     Ws 
would  rt^^gret  v«ry  much  to   s^t-   the  prico    advanoi^d  at    txiis   tinid. 
I   do  not  thlnlc  ^a   can  say  any  mora  if  wrj   talk  an  hour. 

Gosiffi.   jtOBUIS.      Iio*  do  you  fael  about    it,  air.   Patt';JQ    and 
Mr.   Clark? 

^r.   PATTEE.     I    think,  ;^r.   Chairman,   that  --n^  fael  that 
thorns   i^   a  most  decidod   luestion  or  policy  invoiV;;;d  that  will 
hava  d  trsiaendoua   affuot  on   the   in-i'ostry.      If  a  prica   is  iande 
which  coateaiplatss   a  r^ooupmsn*   Liter,    tiio  public  should  c.r- 
tainly  be  givan  piiiinly    to   undo'rstand    that    triyy  are   getting 
their  product   at  l-ass   than  cost,    :a-icl   that  a  later  racouprntnt 
is  Justified.      I   doubt   ths   advisability  of  procaeding  on  a 
plan    that  conteaiplatas   an  aw^ird    that   shctii   h:  r-coupcd  lator, 
espocially  wiian    ^ha   CJosamiccion  will  /^o   out   of  existw-ncrf   and 
have   no    chance   latar  officially    to  declare   ro    th-:;  public    tiiat  I 

a  recoupmmt  of   a  certain   amount   is   justified   —  what   rccoupm-nt 
in  justified.        How,    psr  son  ally,   from  what:   casual.  ai<iiting  with 
paopla  I  hive  enjoyed,   I  have  found   Uiat    tte  public  e-Tproeses 


m 


223^ 


its  Opinion  svary^hers    that    triay  are  willing    to   pay   if    th<jy 
can  okj  satiofiad   that   they  are  not  askf;»d   to  pay  anyt^iing  thxat 
is  vini'-iir  and  unreasonable.     It  is  not   the  cost  of    the   article 

in  itself   that   they  object   to  so  much  as  tm  faimsss  and 

i 

I  reasonableness  of   th&  cost.     YIgw,   I  uo  not  s&&  hO'-v,    if   tliis 

CosBBieslon  awiircis  a  pricj  witfaout  expl-:mation  and  provision  for 
I  a  later  adjuatm^nt,   it  con  have*  anytaiag  else   than  a  disaetroue 
affect   on    th^    iniustry.      In    the   first  places,   you   should  stats, 
if  you  do    that,    that  it  is  a  loss  '^iiich  we   ar^  entitled  lattsr 
I   to  laako  up,    and  sliould  stat-3  d-jfiniteiy  aoas  plan,-  3iva  us 

somd    »ay,    if  you   enforce   on  ua  a  loss  now,    in    rf'nioh  we  may  maJce 
'    tj-iat  loss  good  at   a  latisr  date.      I   do  not  s£;e  how,    as  a  smtt&r 
of  policy,  you  can  say   that, discontinuing  April  1,  you  are  go- 
ing   to  inflict  a  lose  on  us  no*,    sad  "go    to  it   'jnd   get   coaa- 
thin^    to   r-jcoup  yoursolv^s   ^ater  if  you  can.* 

Coiaai.  'dO'S.'RlS*     Wsii,    that  ^im   tiis  a-jthoa  of  handling  the 
business  before  any  coamission  ®as  in  oxistance,   wasn't  it,  Mr. 
Pattss? 

Mr.  PATTSS.     Of   taking  a  logs   in  the  winter  and  a  gain 
in  the  sua^er? 

Ooflsa,  MCHSI3.        Yes. 

Hr»   PATTSiS.     So  far  aa  ths  d^^alirs  ?y»re   cons.-;rnc^d,   yas. 
What  I   coll  your  -itt«intion   to  is    the  fact   that   it  vsos   in 
sxistdnoa  do«s  not  justify  — - 

Somra*   'J.G'BV.IB  *     Don*  t  you    think    that   sae  really   the   effact 
on   the  f araors,    too?     That    thd  farmers  aiTiJi  up   in    fch-j   sucisi'jr, 
if    thay  uVfsr  made   up,    the   lossos   that  probably    tiiey  suff jryd 
during   the   winter   r^ionths  on   the   production  of  xciUc? 

iLr,   ?ATTS£.     Ths   f -iCt    that    they  have  not    turntJd  very 
largely  tovvard  the  production  of  winter  milk,   when  the   public 
needs   it,   nwuds   it  most,   would   indicate,    not    that    they  mada   up. 


229 

mad©  a  profit  in   tha  sumr^r,   but   that   they  2a*i3  less  loss. 
¥ow,   if  you  are  going   to  anooura^e  winter  dairying  --  and  that 
is  what  you  have  got  to  work  toward  in  Sew  Sngiand  —  «hy 
should  you  put  a  prill©  in   th<2  wixiterticit.',   in   tlia  latter  port 
of  the   winter,    at  a  kno«n»   fixed  loss,    and  proaiisu^j   th^a,    or 
suggest   to    tj-isia,   or  adviaa   thsm,    that   tJiey  ask  enough  in   the 
euffijcartiaiis   to  laake  not  only  a  ^jrofit  then  but   to  isaka  a  profit 
that  ftili   r^icoup    th-a  loss   in   tha  vsintartiaie ,      It  s-jwas    to  /r^ 
thit  following    that   systtsja  you  ^re  lixely   to   get  into   a  policy 
that  will  injure   tlaa   industry  and  not  sax-va   tiie  public.     Mow, 
that  is  just   an  offh^md  - — 

CJoaaa,  iiOBSXS.     Of  course  you  would  prob^ibly  iacrftasw  th« 
\  surplus.     On   tJiis  lut^ation  of  surplus   that  you  priisentod 
yvist'srday,    Uis  advice   to    th^   d^Jiil-^rs   that    they   suouid   use  a 
groat  d^aai  of  c-aro   in   taking  on  iaore  dairies  during  tha  naxt 
three  months,  sight  that  not  get  rid  of    that  -iUjstiQn? 

^r.   PATES.      Merely  as   a  mat  ^..^r  of  advice. 

Coam.  i&.OHBIS#      If   i"^.  "^as  carried  out  tiy  tha  dy&lers.     la 
would  hiVs!  th€'  records  of   the  naxt  three  aonths  on  s^hat   thoy 
did   take  on.  -    : 

':Ar»  PATTES.     Yes. 

OOjsm.  MQTsdXS,  iiavon't  you  oonfidunca  enougti  in  th^  deal- 
ers so  that  advice  of  that  sort  to  ths  di^ial&Ts  would  eliainate 
a  study  of    that  problem  at   this    time? 

Mr,   PAITS^i.      I     don*t  kno«  as  I  gat  just  wha.t  you  ai^^an. 
Take   on  niw  da-irias? 

CoBsn.  M0R3IS.     Yr?8,    smd   thus   inoroaslng   th^^ir  surplus  dur- 
ing   the   next    thre«  months. 

^r.   PATT:SS.      I    think   that    tha  d^aitsr  will   "oo   gov^mad  by 
his   judgm<3nt  of   what   is  goin.~  to  give  him  this  most  iaondy.  How, 
I   do  not  bu;li«va   that   anything  -alsa  viill  govern  his   conduct 


230 

in   tha   taking  on  of  naw  b^asiness.     Now,    it  is  perhaps  baside 
the  aark  entirely,   but  you  can't  have  failed  to  notiiie   the 
tremendous  increase  in  value   the  •.«  has  been  in  racant  months 
in   ths  by-producte  of  milk,  more  particularly  butter.     I    suppose 
it  is   beyond   ths  jurisdiction,   perhaps,   of   thia  Ooanaission   to 
inquire  *hat  final  disposition  was  aiads  of   tha   by-products 
into  which  t>3    ioaJ.ers  ciada    this  surpixis.     But  it  is  fair   to 
assume,    I   belie va,    that   at   least   sose   of   those   by-products 
^ere  carriad  along  until  a  considerable  profit  ^as  mada  in  that 
nilk.     IJow,    thers  is  an  inducemsnt  that  has  not  sntared  into 
these  discxissions  —  perhaps  properly,   perhaps  otherwise  — 
to   take  on  surplus   «/.ian  surplus  can  be   tak^n  on   to    the-   advantage 
of  the*  dealer,    xnd  for  no  other  cause   than  that  Ipa  knows  it  is 
to  his   -Id V cm t ago    to   tajie  it  on. 

Gosim.  M0I?'^?I5*        'iVeH,    do  you  apprehend    that    th^^ra   Ifi  likely 
to  bw  durln£;   th!5  three  inoriths   a  continu-ad  rising  mai'ket? 

Hr,   PATiriia.     I   apprt/hafnd  that   t}ia  market   ,vi.ll  o^  mor^^  or 
liss.'i  stabl:-;,      I    uoubt   if   it  goes  sauch  highi?r.      But   the    thought 
I  had  in  vtiind  was    that    if  you  »-3re   to   a-.vard   a  price  that  your 
figures  would  juo^ify,   prfrhaps,    an  increased  price   to   the  pub- 
lic,   the    jL^^axBT  could  not  euffor  under  any  diminished  demand. 

Coami.  UO^-nBt     But  yoxir   clients  -«iii  suffer-? 

Mr»   PATTBE.      If  anybody.        If  anyoody,    the   proJuc^^rs  will 
syffor»      Is   it   otrtter  for  them,  and    tho   industry  that   thsy  shall 
gat  wh=it  they   are  r.5asonably  ontitlod   to  on  the  basis  on  vyhich 
you  would  operate  for    these  v>int^r  nicnths   and   take    the  loss  on 
the  surplus,   or  is  it  better  to    take  a  losy  in    *he  soiling 
pries,    another  loss  on  the   surplus   and   tha  laicortainty  of  a 
racoupra&nt,   witli  a  possible  isisundsrstandin :  ana   chai'ge  of  mis- 
conduct latsr  when  we    txy    to   g«;t   it?      It   aoonm    to   nvc    that, 
epsaking  on  a  mattsr  of  snap  judgmcint,    it   is  better   to   confine 


a-vci    i. 


TOT' 


m 


iD     ^>tc-: 


231 

youraalf   to  axactly  what,    tht^  warrant  calis  for,   if   thfi  indus- 
try dojs  suffer. 

Coram.  MOHEIS.      Of   course,   upon  careful  analysis   of    those 
figures  wo  aiiy  not  find   that  there  have   bean   thase   added  costs. 
We    are  siraply  assuming  now  that  perhaps   there  has   baen  soras 
added   cost  of  production.      3ut  I   do  not  ^^ant  it    to  be    taken  as     I 
the  opinion  of   the  GonKnission   tliat    these   costs  are  warranted. 

iir,   PATTES.  I   do  not  knovi  hoi^  much  study  you  have    given 

It,   but  I    think   the  Ooasnission  should   take   into   consid-sration 
what   the   public  at   least  does  not,    and    that   is   that    the   opar- 
ation  of    the  surplus  plan  has  materially  rsduc^;-d    the  price 
that    the  faanaer  has  received  per  quart.     How,   -sj   assume,   at 
least,    that  your  finding  of   a  pries  for  whole  asil3c  has   been 
your  judgment   of   what  prica    the  farmer  was  entitled   to   on   the 
basis  of   cost  plus  a  reasonable  profit.     How,    I   v/o'old  lii:<5    to       j 
suggest    to   you  a  y^sighted  average   b.asis  figured  out  of    th„  loss 
psr  tiuart   through   the   operation  of    the   siirplus  plan.        It   varies 
all    the   vmy  from  1.1  cmts  per    luart    to  3  mills  per  luart. 

Comm.   MOB^IS.        But  in   that    argument  you  >are   entirely 
disregarding  the   order.  I   do  not   think   that  argument 

would  have  much  weight   v/ith  me. 

Mr.    PATTHB.      But  the  fact   remains    that  we   n^ver,    since 
the  first   of  May,   have  received    the   price,    Gometimas   not   go  much 
by  more   than  a   cent  a   -juart,    that   the   Coamission  awarded   us   for 
the  milk   that   we  luaie.      The   production  of  milk  has   been  con- 
ducted at  a  loss   continually   through  the  year,    since   the  first 
of  May  —  lesc-    thim  the  pric^   the   Oomaission  awarded.      I  doubt 
myself  whether  it   would   be   wise   to   inflict  a  loss  upon   us  with- 
out advertising   to   the  public   that  we  -^are  Justified  in  a  later 
recoupment, 

Comm.  M0BBI3.     i£y  ©xpori^-nce  iias   be-^n    that   a  good  many   of 


m 


-leiS!". 


# 


«  fiSiC      ■: 


232 


the  fonaers  have   b^&n  pretty  well  satisfied.     Of   course  you 
have  b©f  er  means  of  kno%ing  wiiat    the  general  consensue  of 
opinion  is  with   tha  farxaers. 

Ohairaian  ALLiLM.       1   think  your  lu-^stion   to  Mr.  Pattea, 


jsr. 


>rris,  was  a  proper  question.     And  I   thinjc  that  you,  Mr. 


Patttse,  vvitlidrew  your  reiusjst   to  the  Commission  for  a  changed 
surplue  plan  in  viow  of  th©  fact   that  w«  ara  going  out  of 
business  three  months  from  today,    as  oeing  a  help   to    the 
Commission  in  arriving  at   a  f.iir  price  for   the  next    thre^ 
months.     That  is  what  you  had  in  aind,    s&sn*  t  it,  iir.  Morris? 

Oooam.  JjOBI^IS.       V^s. 

Mr.   PATTSE.     That  w©  withdrew  our   r^^quest  for  an  am^andrasnt 
to    ♦•Jae  surplus  plan? 

Ohainaan  ALLiiy.        y«Q »     Tbaj.t  you    'iiought   it  was   a  proper 
thing   to  do   in  vitf*»  of  -what    tiie   Goaaission  h;is    to  do   at    this 
tiaa. 

Mr.   PATTJSE.     ^y  viev/  of    the-  laatttfr,    -Mid  ay  proposition   to 
(xBX'^n^   tiie  surplus  plan,  was  largely  bas^d  on  th®  assumption 
that  you  werti  soon   to   go  out  of  busin^-ss  as  a  coiamiesion,    and 
that  if    thij  surplvis  plan  wera   to  continue  it  laust  be,   &-for@ 
you  go  out,    eo  a3i0nds3d  as    to   cover   thos*3  i.oint8    thit  I  ja-an- 
tiondd,   w>iilg    th®  Ooxamission  iiMi  yjt  authority   to  (^nforca 
its  operation. 

OoBiffl.   LICRl^IS.     We  have  got     to  sat    the-  price  for  the  next 
throe  months,   and  we  hava  got  to  ao  it  pr-jtty   -luicicly.       That 
would  reiuire   a  critical   study  ox    the   effect   of    the    Ofaendiiitrnt 
upon  pricas,  »ould  it  not;   or,   wouia  it? 

I 
I 

Mr.   PATTSS.      I   don't   sea  nhy»      It  would   bt;   iaarely   a  laatLijr 
of    thii  distrlbuMon  of   tha  loss.        It   is   siiiipiy  a  z-wtnod  of 
Idistributini,.  the  surplus  loss. 

::oaira,   MOH'RIS.     All  ri^ht.     Vh^l  do  you  say  about   legis- 


233 

Xation? 

Mr,  PArrsS.     ??pjaking  broadly,   I    im   loubtful  of   the 
advisability  of  legislative  price  fixing. 

Oomn,  MOBr?IS.     I   do  not  tMnk   snyDody  thinks  for  a  moment 
that  w©  oouid  sit  as  a  board  for  priG«  fixing;    but  it  would 
be  T&OTQ   in  the  natur-j  of  an  arbitr:ition  board  for  Few  England. 

Mr.  PATT2E.      Thaoretically  I    think    Uiat  we  wo-ald  entirely 
agree •    the  practical  op-^ration  of  such    i  aattar  is  what  bothers 
ma   in  f  iret    tlriinking  of  it,     Kow  such  a  board  would  be   created 
anl  what  vrould  be   tha   ooraplexioa  of  it.     We   are  perftsctly 
willing,-  I  hops  always  will  bs  willing,-  to  base  our  demands 
for  a  pric©  on   a  reasonable,   fair  proposition,    ana   be  able  to 
satisfy  reasonable  a^n  that  we  ar«  fair.     To  pl6dg«f  ourselv^ss 
to  ^    b'iiortJ  a  boaM  that  might  originate  w©  know  not  how,   ,and 
b<i  coiaiposed  of  we  know  not  vshat,   I   thin:k  would  bs  very  doubt- 
tiil. 

Consa.  MOBBIS,     What  we  discussed  was    the   possibility  of 
a  representative  appointed  from  isach  state  by  the  <k>vernor  and 
Council  of   the   state. 

Ohairajan  ALLI:N.      Then  you  do  not  favor  such  a  thing?     I 
think  it  is  fair  to  stats  here    tiiat  none   of   tha  Commissioners 
who  have   b^^sn  sitting   are  locking  tor  another  job  or  continuing 
in   thiiir  work. 

Mr,   PATnS.     Let   ase  say    to  you  that  I   hive    bm^n  down  in 
Washington  and  have  heard  iu  expressed  in   tho  capitoi  rcjpeatad- 
ly  by  aen  who  s-ars  appointed  for    ■heir  jobs   —  «ell,    I   suppose 
bocausw-   thay  wera  min  of  intvilli^wnca  and  und'-rntanding,    that 
they   «vere  spl-andidly  d  |uipp  -d   to   S'St  tie   tha  xciik  problem  bo- 
causii    th^jy  knevi  absolutely  no  tiling  about  it. 

Chairman  ALLSIf.     Won't  you  answer   t.'iis  question,   lir, 
Pat tee?     I t  is  after  on»   o'clock.      This  Commission   is  not  going 


I 


^ 


234 


to  do  ewy thing  except   as  thsy  fasl  that  possibly  a  lS<sw  England 
States  t)<^ard  might  bs  of  holp   to   the  milk  industry.     ?Tow,    it 
goaa  without   saying  that  unless   the  producers  looic  vjith  favor 
on  soras  such  ^hin^   that  we  shall  not  taks  any  action:   in  other 
words,   what  we  want  to  l«avs   is  a  constructive   guggastion  «ffa@n 
we  go  out  of  business,     ^ow,    in  yoinr  opinion,   is  it  wise  for 
this  board  to  leave   a  constructive  suggestion  or   to  work  on 
one  in  the  ne)<t    three  loonths? 

Ur,   PATTEE.        I   bwiievs  that   the  Board  should   take  under 
carjjful  coneideration  ewvsral  saattora  and  make  rdcoinr&indations. 

Ohuinaan  ALU 3.     Well,    this   is  one  snatter.      This   is    the 
principal  thing. 

Mr.  PA^TTSS.     Vou  want  to  know  whether  we   oelicvs   there 
shouldt  bi  a  permanent  board? 

Chairman  ALLEN.       Yes.     Or,  Is^v^  tha  ailit  industry  like 
other  Industriarj,   to  tma  law  of  supply   and  aeaand? 

Mr,   ?A:rTEg.      It  will  operate  any*. ay. 

Ohairman  AI2*EH.     Well,    it  has  not  operated  for   tha  last 
yaar. 

Mr.   PAT1SS.     I  would  not  lika   to   ooiatait    1iie  orgsmization, 
or  ffiyseif  person ;ally,    cmd  I  woisli  not  like   to   t>e   socsiaitted   as 
opposed   to  that.      It  is    too   ne*  a  question   andi   too    Dig  a  ons 
for  a  small  mind  like  my  o^n   to  express   itself  on. 

Oomm.  MO"fl!HIB.      It  is   a  big  quastion,    certainly.      V.ill  you 
think  that  a-s-tter  ov«r  and  notify  Chairraan  Allien  later  on? 

Mr.   P-AJISS.      I  will  be  vury  glad  to* 

Oomm,  idOKRIS.     And  it   should  be  done  r<2asonably  quick, 
because   tlvi;  L«gisi Attires  of  tho  several  statss  are  in  c^^ssion 
at    thii   prt-'Sant    time.     Most  of  them  are   opanins   tomorrow, 

Ohainaan  .'^U.KTf.     But,  if  your   people   do   not  fsil   that  such 
a  board  would  bs   of  halp  to    the   industry,    thi^n  we  will  do 


2Z5 

Comm.  BIPD.      I  think   in  faimsse!   to  Mr,  Patt^e,   so   that 
h©  may  taks*  up  the  cilscusjsion  with  his   pr^ropl?,    I   might   eay 
that   there  ar@  tw>  distinct  ideas.     One  i3   to  have  urtirorm 
legislation  in  oaoh  o.f   the  etatssp   in  that  way  giving   the 
commission  mora   power  than   it  otjaerwise  would  h.'Sfe;   and   the 
other  tJirt  appointia^^nt  of  a  roprasectative  b:;   tha  Covernor   to 
thQ  board,    the  board  Bxsngly  t,o  ascartain  the   cost  of   orodue- 
tion  and   the  oogt  of  distribution  and   state  ^hat   in   their 
opinion  is  a  f'Jtir  price  Tor  each.     They  woii3.d  have  no  p-oiioing 
powers;    it  v^ould  siraply  be  a  qtuestion  of  fairness   ,   an<?.   ths 
public,    the  farm'-r  and   +-he  dealer  would  S^el   that   someone  had 
inveatigated   the  matter  and  had  been  abi«   to  mai:Q   a  otaterat?nt 
as   to    the  facts »-  an  unbiasad  board.      .Jastof  her?  much  v.xl.ue 
that  woiiid  be   the  OoffiRisclon  do^s  not  icnow* 

Mr*  PATTSS,      I  would  sx^ir&st  that  a  board  br   sres^ted 
with  pov/ar  to  eiaamone  witnesses » 

Oomck,  BIBB.  That  would  :ill  depend   i>pon  v?hethtjr  uniform 

legislation  coxUd  be  put   tliro'a«:h.     That  -^ould  be   the  otrjer  side 
of    th©  question. 

Oozaa.   H01?1?IS«     ?hora  wov;ld  probably  be  no  doubt  that  such 
a  board  could  bo   created  isith  po-ssr   to   uuanjons  witnesoes  ^lnd 
taks   t5Jctiiaony.     What  would   trouble  ejs  more  enpecialiy  would 
ba    ths   luastion  of  -sthat   the  duties   of   such  a  board  woiiid  be 
confined   to,  when  you  consider  its  dutios  in  reference    to  th« 
^edoral  anti-trust  law,   and  what  policing  v-orK   it  asi^ht   do. 

«Sr.   PATTSS.     7ha   policir^   ^r'ould   aesm  to  me    to   be   a  very 
difficult  matter.      But    the  findincc  of  g-ach  a  board  furnich  a 
banis  for  public  s'^ntisaent    and  Justify   .iction  on  the  p^irt  cf 
thosa  who  do  have  soEie   policing  powsr,    like    the  producirs    thwiii- 
selvss.         What  little  chance  I   have  h;j.d    to  observ;?   the  oper- 


236 

ation  of  cuch.  boards  has  led.  me    -.o   doubt,    to  be  very   cautiouB 

in  ^.ftreein^  to  accept   thsir  findings;   particularly  in  reference 

to  agricxiltural  -lusstions,  whsra   the  maaabsrs   are   appointed  by 

the  Governor  3.nd  Ooiancil  in  ojr  Hew  England  Stataa.      It   is 

almost  always  a  board  of  men  made  up  of  business  interests   and 

buoinsss    training,    and  of  those  professional  aisn  who  have  as  a 

rule  very  little  understanding  of   the  agricxiltural  situation, 

of  an  a^^^icultural  problem,   of  its  possibilitios  of  dsvelop- 

aiant,   towards  which  we  arc*  all  working  —  it   is  difficult  for 

tJisa  to  und-3retand  tho  hardships  -^e  have  in  got  ting  cost   rs- 

porta,    and  they  are   out  of  touch  with   "rhi   a,=7ri cultural  industry 

and  in   cios^j   touch  with  the   bus  ins  ss   interacts   that  are  more 

nearly  r^-prss^nted  by   th.,^   dealers.        And  I  have  noticed  in  this 

discussion  here   --  probably  largely  our  fault  --   that  great 

weight  is  attached   to    fh^-   figures  presanted   by   book-keepers 

and  snen  of   that   character  —  prop-v-rly,    of  course   —   j.nd  we   are 

deprived  of  that  servict?,   necessarily.      And  so  I  say   that   this 

board  I   bslieve  is  exceptional  in   giving  '^^i.fjn.t   to   ths  farmurs* 

side   and  I   hava  hasitatsd   to   coamit    th*  producers   to   any  boa.rd 

that  had  a  political  origin,   mady   up  of  lusn  associated  with 

th089  whose   int-v,>rast   it   is    to  have   our  product  sold  cheaply, 

Ooaaa.   HO'Rl'IS.      Of   courss    this   OomajiSiSion  has    triad  very 

faithfully  and  fairly,    I   thirxk,  to   get  at    th-a   figur.js   on  botii 

sidss.The  fact    that  perhaps  mora    timy   nas   bmn   spent   «ith    tJae 

dsaiers'    fi/^urec   than  with   the   faraiars'    figur'Sa   is   because  of 

the   intricacy  of    thoss  fi,5ures   and   our   lAck   of  icnowlaJg-i    of 

as 
i^hat   goes  into    city  distribution,  icnov.ing^ /tv-s   do,   moro    libout 

ths  country   production. 

Mr*   PATTSS.     My  r ^.iiruxlis  -fie re  roi-ant    to    be  on   a  line    of 
statins   the   facts  more    than   j.  criticism. 

Comm.  il01?l?IS.      I   understand. 


i 


-:B 


237 

i^r,   PATT^.     But  a  board  which  was  to  study   tiiis  problem 
with  a  view   to   giving  tiie  public   the  cheapest  milk   it  could  get 
for  thaaa,   rather  than  to   ouild  up   th-s  industry  uhxah  sustains 
the  public,   I    thini:  would  b©  v-3ry,   very  injurious. 

Mr,   SHAM  D»   OLARK.      Just  a  word.     I   t^ant   to  say   that  I 
am  in   accord  with  Mr.  Pattae*       And  as  a  x^roducer  I   vsas  plsased 
to  h'^ar  it  statad  this  morning  that,   although  thars  had  bssn  a 
sh*^rp  increase   in  the  price  of  milk  from  a  year  or  so  ago   to 
the  present  price,   it  had  not  changed  very  much  the   volume  or 
sales.     Mow,    as   to  the  price  for  tha  n^xt    thres  months.     ?ro- 
b.ibly   it  «ili  continue  aion^  something   as  it  has  ifesn  in  the 
past.     And  as   to   tiin  recoupment,   I    ^hihk  I   am  making  no  mis- 
statenent  wh=^n  I   say,    as   a  producer,   from  the    beginning  of   time, 
ishanavsr  that  was,   up   to  a  year  or  so  ago,    that   the  dairymen 
have  be^n  penalized,    fJa^j  hava  not  hid   a  f -ar  chow.     And  I 
trust    that   fa^  will  hiVe   recoupm^-nt  rrom  no*;   to    tha  and  of    time 
in   tho   form  of  a  f  iir  attitude  of  legislation  and   th<5  public 
tov,ards  our  dairy  industry.     We   arc*  not  looking  for  r^-coupment 
merely   for   April,   May   und  June,    or  so.u^thinjt  like   that;    wa  want 
recoupiaent  now   to   the  end  of   tiao   in  a  fair  attitud<js   tov<ards  us 
by  logislaturas   and  by    th*  public.      That   is   ail  tha  recoupment 
we  ask  for. 

Mr.   OUSI'tSl.     Mr.   Chaina^an,   I   wasnot  h«r«  ishen  Mr.   Sears 
stated   thd   attitud**  of    the  Hood  Ccapriny,   but   I   und^irstand   it 
was    that    thsy  regret   any   incrriase   in  pric-j    to   the    consum.^r,    and 
I  understand  it  stopped  there.     Wd   regret  ^kny  incrs?ased  prices 
to   th3   consumer,    but    I    sa  not  ^oing  to  stop   th..?rs.     Wo   ask  this 
Gommisoion  now   to  liv.3  up    to  its   warrant   .ind  give   us   such  a 
spread  as  to  giv^j  us    jl  cost  plus  profit,     we  have  heard  recoup- 
nsnt   talked  for  nino  months,    ten  months,    -jlavan  months,    evc-n  as 
late   as  last  Novemo^r,  whan  it  must  have   baen    in    the  minds  of 


I 


238 


evaiy   one  of   this  Ooiamisaivm   that,   the   time  was  getting  short 
whiJn  yov  wmxld  sit.      Tiiit   recoupffl'Sint,    as  far  as  the   d^aJ-drs  are 
concerned,  has  not   come   yet,        Now,    in   the  i>ast    the  prici    to 
the  faradr  has  beSfiio-Jwer  in   tlii  months  of  ^'-^bruary  and  iAarch. 
It  h-ris  bft^n  i^raded.     I    aa  not  sc'-n/j   *J0  S^   into    the  f  araiessrs* 
figiiraa;    I  don*  t  icnow  any  thins  about  that.      I   do  knoitf  this, 
ho\serar,-   that  wa  hav<3  given  you  figures  of   the  cost  of  dis- 
tribution of  miXVi,    .vni  between  ail   the  figures  given  you  have 
got  fair  svidsnoa,    sspecioily  if  you  get   th»  added  itexas   that 
hnvu   b^Ksu  re^ueoted,   go  that   o,q  f.ar  as   the  dealers*    costs   are 
consjrnjd  you  havj  got  aa  n^ar  accurate   costs  as  you  humanly 
can   jxpjct,   with  tiiB  opportunity  cf  vsrifyins  aXi   these  figures. 

I  suti  not  >'>ins    to    call  to   your  attention  soei©  of   tha   things 
that  have    occurr*!  in   -^.hc'  Ixst  hearings   in  r'S^^^d  to  figures 
presentaa  to   tnis  board*      out  you  jaixvQ  had  sinc^  January  1  data 
froa  at  X^^^st  one  s-at   of  dealers  as  lJ>,rr.ii   ^3  any,.,    itnd  probiibly 
ti-ia  largest  sat  of  dealers  —  you  havtj  iiad  actual  figures  from 
■which  you  could  dcit«raiins  ciccurately  tJiu   costs  of    the   distribu- 
tion 3Jid  aeli vyry   of  r.ilk.      You  hivs  h:ii    in    the  Whiting  figurss 
tha  voiuiKi,    ths  unit  costa,   you  yourseivas  have  fixed  the  f  .o.b. 
price    to    oe  paid  the  farrK^r,    ;ma   tha   spread   could   b-s  dc;tsrmin*sd 
^y  yo^Af    ^^nd  a.  s-japly  naattar  of  roultiplicatlon  would  iniicata   to 
you,   not  ?*hat  our  profit  ^ind   lose,  sheet  showi/d,   which  was  the 
ant  ire  buslnass  and  siuat  b^^  always  kno'-s?n  una  aoncid-ireci  as  such, 
but    lh:3    actual  profit  on   ^i^  fluid  ailk  business,    vyhich  it  is 
your  duty   to  fix. 

'^hat  wars  tha  sprfaida   that  you  h.ivo  sivsn  us^     Ir\  January — 
and  I  shall  repeat   thase  for   th.-;  record  —  thie  i,o   *.hs    cpr-ad 
givsn    tile  dsalera,    tho  differ^nc-s   oetw«^jrn   the   consumers'   price 
and    thd  f.o.b.    priC3   at    'he  fxras;      January, -foiniiy,   ^0*30; 
stcra,    .040;    cans,    .0305.      The  same  spread  pr:;v  ^ilsid   in  Jimuary, 


i' 


239 
i'ebruary  and  March.     In  April,-  fa'jiily,    .005;    stor^^,    .0450: 
oans^    .055S.      In  tjiosa   tiiSKSS  the  dealers   carrisd   tho   surplus, 
but   thi^re  was  put  into   tii«lr  coats,    «hicii  should  have  bean   tokan 
care   of,    an  agreed  prica  to  oover   tiiat   of    *04  piua,  meaning 
4  mills   sometJriing.     But   thasd   costs  ard  not   identiciii  with  tne 
spread  which  you  havs  glv-^n  us. 

In  May,-    .0675  i'or  fsicily,    ,0475  i'or  store,    .0401  for  cans. 
And  I    think  May   is   th<s  first  iaoath   that  ^yan  our  ^irofit  and  loss 
account  of   th«3  entire?  businsss  showed  a  profit.     In  June  our 
spread  was,-  faisily,    .0C50i    store,    .0430:    sans,    .0426.      Jiily,- 
faaaily,    .06375;    a  tors,    ,04375;    cans,    .0563.      In  August,-    ,06375; 
store,    .04575;    cans,    .03725.     Septemb.i-r,-f^iiiiy,    .06373;    store, 
.0-4375;    cans,    .0.57S5.     October,-  fa'aily,    .06375;    store,. 04375; 
c  ans ,    . 03915 . 

inuring  the  months   of  ilay,    Juna,    July,    Aup.:ust,   Sapteiabar 
and  Octobsr,    the   surplus  plan  ^as   in  full  sitacution. 

Wovsciber,-  faajiiy,    .0675;    store,    .0*75;    cans,    .0^54.      And 
during  tha  month  of  Ilovember  you  dstei'-Biinsd  tiiat    ths  ttealars 
should  £ii53orb   tto  surplus,    and  you  K-iVj  rrot  ilovsmbor* b  figurtis 
cf  at  i«ast  one   concam  hare,    which  I    wiini:  you  can  ruly  on  -- 
a  3mxli..2r  concern  coiold  qxvz  you   tiuj  fi,p.,rrjr;  unitir  those  uniforai 
ciasuifica-ciona. 

Ths  prica  for  JJac^o'sibsr  we  do  not  krwv,!.      That  is   :'yt    to  bd 
sat  tied.      That    is,    I  maan    th-j   entire  pric-.-r,    and  wh^in   I    apaak 
about   the  prlsa,   you  can't   sy-siik.   about   tho   spr^^id  without  con- 
sidering  th-3  dispoation  ox'   zhe   surplus,    i«/hioh  y^t  r-jmaind  to 
h^  dv-atarrainad   by  your  :;o;amisaion. 

Nov«,   notg    tha-t   the   gri;-atsst  aprsad  which   *»   get  v.. is  in 
ths  month  of   June,    whan  -^d  got  .0650  fo^r  faraiiy,    ,0450  for 
store,    .04S6   for  cans.        Now,    g-mtlajaan,    thera   is   just  one 
thing    to  add,    in  ^y   juagai-^nt.     You  should  giv«i    ujJ    j.  apr^ad   that 


# 


240 
would  enabls  us   tx»  get  our  cost  pXua  a  reasonable  profit.     Ho 
figure  prassntad  to    this   3oiEuniG3ion 

Chairman  ALL3Jf.     Pardon  me,  Mr,  Cusiclc,   but  it  is  twstity 
minutes  of   two,    and  you  wero   asked  —   these  figures  you  have 
given  of  cours'3  ar-a   all  jcatters  of  r'jcord,      on  all  our  books 
hers.     You  wara  askad  to  spsak  for  a  few  minutes  on  th«  prac- 
ticsLl  policy  of  putting   the  prioa  up  during  the  next   thraa 
months  whan   the   tBtidanoy  of  avary thing  slsa   that   is   in   tha 
market  is  probably   iithir  to  a  tand   still  or  go  dioisn.     I    think 
ths  Oommission  would  like   to  haar  about  that, 

Mr,   OUSIGK*     We  have   said   that.     We  want  our  spread. 

Chairman  AIX3U.     On   tVie   lueetion  of   thi  higtissr  price  dur- 
ing  the  next   three  months,   do  you  think   that  would  be  good  or 
bad  for   ths  industry? 

Mr.   CUf^ICK.      I   io  not  think,    personally,    it  makes  any 
diffsrenco. 

Ohairman  ALZ^»     These  ar^   luastions  of  courtesy.      I  msan, 
the   CoBiSiif?nion   simply  wanted   to   get   your  ideas. 

Mr,   GUSI'CJK.      I  i;nowj   but  it   ic  not  a  question  of  courtesy 
I  «ant  to  give   to   ths  Commission,    it  ia  an  important  question 
of    fiCt. 

Ohairjaan  ALL3H.      You   are  going  ov^r  a  gr^at  lamy  figures 
we  have  already  bsfore  xm* 

Mr.   OUniOK.        I   am  ^in>5  over  thea  for   the  last    time,    sir, 
because  we  think  it   is   tim-s    that   justice  was  dona    to    the   deal- 
ers.    That  is  what  we  want.     I   ana  saying  it  for  ths  rifcord.      I 
can  answer  any  Boston  Aaerican  articles  when   the   time   comes. 

Chiirman  ALLS^T.  But   these   are,    of   course,  matters   of 

argumi^nt.      What  we  wanted   to  do  *as  to   get  your  idea  of  policy. 

Mr,  CUSIC5K..      But  what   I  want  from  yoa,    and   I    think   I   am 
entitled  to  it,    is  what  you  are  reTuir^sd   to  do  under  your 


•fi 


warrant,  %vhich.  you  now  hxrs  from  :iil  parties  exoapt  the   Tiirnsr 
Centar.     And  v^hile  I    am  talking  c^n   thj  spraad,   I  will  direct 
your  att^nti-n  i.o    th-  f  ict   that  svan  on   tha  Kood  figurtss    the 
spread  must    i^xc^ed  7  c-ints,-  even  according  to    the  Hood  figures. 
I   am  trying  as  earnestly  and  sincerely  as  I   can  to  direct  your 
attention  to   the  fact    that  your  warrant  is   to  give  us  cost  plus 
profit;    and,   furthermore,   to  r-im&rab^r   that  our  costs  arc-  anrs 
or  less  fix5d.      The  producers'    costs   are  mora  variable   and  you 
can't  get  at   tham  tha   same  say  as  ycu  can  ours.     And,   furthsr- 
Bjore,    as  long  as  I   can  rcmezaber   tha  prices  have  always  baen 

lower     in  February  and  i'arch   to   th^  produc-^r   than  in   the  othsr 
jaon  th    . 

¥ofc,    if  you  want    to   do  justice    to    tha  public,    take    it  off 
where   it  bslonge.     But  I   am  not  discus  sing    that,   I  aa  acking 
for  what  %e  ar©  entitled  to  under  tha  warrant,  Iv-aving   that 
:iuftgtion  —  I   am  cblig<5d  to   —   to  your  o->n  judgment.      It   all 
comes  down   to  ishethor  you  hava   the  ntJrvo   to  do  your  duty. 

GoEn.   MD1??I3.      I   oo  not    think  ths^r*   i0  sny  trouble    about 
the  •nsrva";    it   is  a  luestion  of  being  satisfied  on   fixe  evi- 
dence, Mr.  Ousiclt, 

Mr.   C?J!=;IGK.     Wall,    you  have   got   all  you  have   asJced  for 
now, 

Qosea.  MO'H'PIS.  Yaa.      Ws   have   got    the    gvidence   and   ive  #ill 
study  it   carefully.      And   I   do  not  ^ant  anything   I   hrtva   said  as 
acting  CJhairaian,    in   tha   place   of  Chairman  Allan  for   :t  f aw  min- 
utiig,    'o  indicatsf  that  th©  OojBimisoion  has  detdtnained   that   the 
price  will  hava    to  go  up  on  the  svidsnci,    because  *t?  hava  not 
discuassd  it. 

Oomm,  SAWYSB.     We  have  narvs  enough  to  do  our  duty,    too. 

Mr.   CUSIOK.      Sure.      I    think   tJiat   is  true,   *Ir.   Bawysr,   and 
I  hope  you  will.      I  Imos^  you  have    been  handicapped  in   th;^  past. 


5WCJ 


242 

but   triic    "Ame  you  hav«  got  your  flgurss. 

Chairman  ALLEN.      On   the   iiiestion  of    the  fiitura   of   the 
ComaiisGion.     Ws  want  to  hear  from  tha  dealers  as   to  ahethar 
thsy   think   this   Jojamission  should   taka  any  action  along   that 
line*      I    think  you  wer.2  out,   ^ir*   Onsick,   v/han  we  brought   that 
up  for  discussion.     I   will  repaat  «hat  I  said  bssfors,-   that 
none   of  th^   Jommissioners   are  looking  for  jxij   continuation  of 
th»3ir   jobs.      It  is  only   to  put  in  a  constructive   suggestion 
when  «e  go  out   of  businyaa.     Oan  v/e  put  out  -a  constructive 
s-uggQstion  vshon  this  Commiscion  go^s  cut  of  business  that  will 
help   the  industry?     If   both  i^^rtirs  to    this   a.^ryaransnt   think 
that  soflhithing  aiight  be  dons,   or  ask  us   to  do  something,    wa 
will   try  to  cio    some  tiling  oonctructive.     But  if  you  do  not,   tell 
118  no^   svhat  you  think  of   it,        ■ 

¥jr,  SSA^S.     jar.   Chairman,    *hil-3  I  have  personally  a  very 
grsat  d<iai  of  doubt  as  to   the  wisdom  of   any  kind  of  a  board  of 
arbitr  ition,    such  as  ^r»  Morris    --  I   don't   know  as  hj   suggested, 
but  rtef'^rred  to,   because   of  its  almost  nscessarily  political 
character  --   and   because   I   biliev©    that   the   succass  of   this 
Oomraission,    and   I   tiiink  it  has  b^^n  v©ry   considerabis   in  con- 
trast with  ^h&t  has  happsnsd  in  othy;r  aectione   of   tha  country, 
has  been  because  of  its  entire  freedom  from  any  political 
influ^mca,    and    tho   charaot^^r  of    the   mamhirs  of    the   Ooj^nission, 
I    think    there   is   ons   line  ^shich  is   very    idi-ortant,    'xnl  I    D:^- 
lievs   ce-rtainly    that    th^i   influ<i'no2  of   the  Conuaission  laight 
be-   vsry  gra.i.t  if   brought   to  bear  on  it.      I   rt^fer   to    ths    iU'-)Btion 
of  transportation.     At   the  pr&saint   time   anybody  who  ctudids  in- 
to   th^  way   that   silk   comes    into  the   City  of  Boston,    and    tht;   way 
it  is   dsliv-sred  h>'jr&   oj  thts  railroad    to    the   daalars,    can*t  h«ilp 
but  reach  at   th^  'V:iry  outset   th^   conclusion  that  vory  graat 
improve nients   could   be  raade.      Tht^r©    ie   altogether  too  much  delaiy 


243 
en  route,      dllk.  is  laft  outsid©  of   the   city  and  thsjre  is  aito- 
gethar  too  much  trucking  that  is  raquir-vid.     Tn'^r-3   is  an  dntir® 
abeenca  on  th©  part  or    the  different  railroads   coming  in  here, 
avsn  under  i^ed-sral  administration,   of  soopssration,   so   that   the 
existing  track  facilitias  which  connect  on®  sootion  of   the 
city  vflth  the  othar  are  availed  of  in  ths   slightest  d«gr«e. 
Personally  I  should  like   v>3ry  much  if   th3  CoTBraission  bcjfore*   it 
dissolves   could  give  some  study   to    th-tt  luestion  and  sake  soias 
reconunendatione   in  refersace    to   it,   bi^cause  I   belit-va  cartainiy 
that   ail   the  other  r-icomsiendations  of    thu-   individual  dsalsrs, 
tha  pleadings  on  thair  part,  have  h3,d  no  Qffaet  r/hatsivar.     That 
has  been   tha  axperiencs  of  ay  client.     It  sssaas   to  m&  that  a 
Comoiission  *hich  has  been  as   succassful  as  this  3o.iuai8Qion  has 
in  haiKiling  this   complicated  luestion  would  be  listened   to  with 
ths  greatest  attention  oy   tha   people  who  am  no*  administering 
the  aff -iirs  of  our  railroads,    and   that  bt^fort;    tha  ifediiral 
Government   gives  up  its  control,-  a  control  which  now  means  a 
unified  control  over  ail  the   railroMs   centering  m  Boston, - 
a  very  grsat  iaprovaaiisnt  might  ba  accomplished  in    that  ^^say. 

Ohainaan  ALLSS^.      If   you  tfiii  put    that   in  writing  we  will 
be  vary  glad   to  conoider  it,  Mr.  Ss^ars. 

Mr,  SSASS.      I   '^ill  ba  visry   glad    to  put  it   in  writing. 

Ohairaian  ALLSH.        In  as  much  detail  as   you   can,    so   that 
W0  can  appraciato  clsarly  what   tiia  probiaia  is. 

Hr.   SSABS.      I  will  ba   v«ry  glad   to   do    so. 

Ohairxaon  ALLIiN.     .'Mow,  Mr.   Ousick,   what   do  you  say?      The 
question  '-^^   ars  discussing  is,  iwhat   cons  true  tiva   sugg^istion 
Slight    this  Ooiamigsion  moksj   as  to  any  futur^^   tribunal  or  arbi- 
tration  sxjard,   or  any  kinu   of   a  coaunisaion    that  will  be   of 
benefit   to    fh^i  milk  industry? 

Mr.  OUSIOK.        I  shall  not  bo  able   to  discuss  that,   because 


• 


244 


I  hav©  not  given  it    thoiight  snou^li  to  express  any  opinion  in 
ragard  to  any  triouneO.  to  ait  after  this  aosusission  goee  out 
of  business.     Tna  lawyers  on  the  Board  know  it  is  a  mighty 
difficult  proposition.     I   agree  witfe  what  Mr*  S^ars  h-is  said 
about   transportation.     You  could  help  us   a  lot  thard.     I   could 
give  you  a  dQ?,«n  instances   that  vould  be  very  illustrative  of 
what   is  goinr3  ^^  hsra   in  Boston 

Chairman  AIISN'.     Won't  you  join   with  jlr.   3aara,    thijn,    in 
putting  it  before    tlia  Coaniission  in  dot  ail  - — 

Mr.    3USICK.     Yos .      I    just   want^:jd   to   aay   to  you   that  we 
have  a  city   ^sxpanse   of   |6,C00;    tn-^y  hava   a  city   jxpane^   of 
|1,8Q0  or  |.i,9GG.     Wc  C3Ji*t   gat  a  car  io  id  of  aiik  from  the 
gdneril  dellv-^ry   st.ation,    from  the  sub-station,    to   the  Elm  farm 
Milk  Oompany;    *e  have   to  cart  i  t.     And  simply  bocaus^i   th^y  have 
I  th«  3entr.ii  Macsachtisetts  road   th-^rs,    and   thi*  Boston  .%  Alb^aiy 
insists  on  conisidering   that  as  a  fraig}it  railroad  and  freight 
raovoniant,   not  vithin   the  purvio?*  intonddo  oy    th:i  Interstate 
Oojnraarce   OctaniBsion.      It   in   before  WasMngton  now,    and  I    think 
we  will  h-:iV-3  it  el-aaned  up.     But  you  c-an  s«e  what  it  sill  save 
ue   in  expense. 

Here  is  a  ffleEoorioidua  thit  has  been  handed  rae  by  Mr  .Whiting 
that  I  think  you  could  h^lp  a  good  d^iai  on  if  you  would.  It  is 
in   the  form  of  a  rvsolutioni 

•'Bosoived,    that   the  system  of  deposit  for  bottlss 
deliversd   to   atorssis   in  th;;   intar-sst   of  economical 
ailic  h'indling  ana   ^-iiat   tht*  syetert  in   -Jindorsad  by  th© 
CojBff'.isrsion  and  ite  maint«nanc-5r  is  rscosBB^nded   to 
dealers  and  storakaepsra.* 

You  S'^t5  at    tiicj   pr^iaent    tia»  we   charge  tham  v/ith  the   bottlas. 
Somatifflco  w«  iiavq  a  iittls    trouble,   and  a  word  from   the  Conaniss- 
ion  woLdd  do    js  lot  of  ^ood,    if   «*j  could  ^ot   tha  aonraicsion  on 


245 
record  as  r^j commending  such  s  charge  for  bottles  as  bsing  in  thd 

intirast  of  economical  siilk  handling.     It   ie  wJaat  vj  are  doing 

no%.      I  will  hand   tiiat  to  you  smd  you  can  consider  it.    (Kunding 

paper  to  Dr.   Gilbert.) 

The  o-.hr.-r  thing  I  wotiid  aug^^eat  would  bt?  a  great  deal  more 
attention  on   the  qu-sstion  of  prica  Tor  pints 

I  do  not  think  thare  is  anything  f\irther  I   can  say  to  you. 

Mr,   PATTKE.        In  vijw  of   your   rytuast  for  suggestions,   we 
woxild  likes   to  go  on  record,    if  you  please,   on  this  faatter,    that 
W8  reiu«36t    the  i'sderal  Hilk  CoHmission  for  Hew  England  to  ro- 
ceivQ  from  us  later  in  writing  suggestions   for  a  constructive 
program  after  tha  Goamiission  go=e  out  of  business.     We  reiuost 
that    those  suggestions    bt  given  consideration  by  your  Cor^nisoion 
with  a  vi^v^   to    their  adoption  wiien   you  go   out  of   business. 

CoaKi.   MOBBIS.      Of   coursu   if   iiny  aaov^   ie    to    b^  maa©   —  I 
don't  know   that   it  is  adviaabls,   I   don't  know  that  it  is   .«antad 
on   tho  part  of  aithar   th.5  aealars  or   tlria  producars;    but.   if  any 
move   is  cont^mplattsd  requiring  iugislation  for  a  p^naem^nt 
board,    it   should   bs  mad:?  v^ry  speedily,    baoausd    tiicii  Legislatiaras 
are   in  session,    and  some  of  them  ao  not  iHiVs   a  very  long  Ssjss- 
ion.      Tha  bills  would  nave   to   be   introduced.      I   judge,    though, 
from  what  lias   o^an  said  hers,    tnat   there   does  not  seam  to  ba 
any   great   call  for  any  such  ii;ov@.        But    if  you  havia  any   r-.=  com- 
mendations  on    t>iat   point,    I   as  sums-  Chairman  All^n  would   be  glad 
to   receive   thsm. 

Mr.  CU3I0K.     You  havif  not   dacid^d  what   surplus  plan  ¥»Q 
ara   rtmnin^  under   in  Hovambyr   and  Decambar? 

Oomra,   iaOI?T?IS.      We   will   taka   tnar,   unU;ir   advisement    in 
connection  Y*ith  the  othar  mattars  **hen  we  go  into  executiva 
sssnion. 

Mr,   CUSIOJ-.        ^all   than,    just   refer,   will  you,    to    tlie 


record,  and  Uiat  gives  soma  at  our  reasons.  You  laios  ws  hay« 
not  ^one  into  it  entirely,  but  the  racord  of  ths  last  laeeting 
■will  give  som'5  of  oiur  reasons   for  objecting   to    that   5^, 

Coajm,   :aOi?'RIS.      I   was  not   prosent, 

Mr«  CU3I0K.     Y3S,   you  ^&re  pr^.^8ent  at  ths  xast  jaeating, 
anu  you  said  you  wouli  take    the  joatter  up  at  the  n,act  hearing. 
And    than  yesterday  you  said  you  "i^ould   tajce   it  up   today,    and   it 
has   not  bayji  talton  no. 

Coram.  M0"RT?II3»     W.is  aom^  argument  mads   on  it? 

ISr,   OUSIOK.      "TAers  c8rtoJ,niy  -sos. 

Coiani.  MCTf^IS .      Js    tliero  ^r»y  thing  an  do  not  understand  now? 

Mr,  r;U?XOK»  I  cion't  knov/.  But  it  is  .iovdrwa  to  eoiae 
extent  in  ths  last  aiseting,-  in  the  laat  record  of  wiu  Gom~ 
iRission*        That   is   the   re  cord  of  I3ao«tAbsir  2os 

CoBJK.   MCT?i?IS.      I  raaaabar  fthut   sids   e.-.iu^ 

Mr.   SEAPS.        As   thJs,    I   urderetand,    3s    the   iiist    time   we 
are  goin^   ^o  br  officially  together,  my   cii-^-nto  caiU  I  faui  v«3ry 
certain  that  ?/h-s-t  I   am  saying  rsprss^nts  ths   opinion  of   t^very 
cne   ^ho  h-xt  been  before   this  Goa-ui salon,-  that  via   all  appreciate 
vsry  rruch   the  ^foifk    that   th?   Ocrfiffiiasion   has  don.3    and    tha    tiiSHS 
that    ths  T.smbers,   '.vithou^   any   rerriunaration   :md  siKply  for 
patriotic   raartonSp    hT/fi   ,51  v. m   to  a  study   of   these   difficult 
problems   that    somei  before  yvva*      Aiici    uht>y  v.'i.^h  to  yjxpro^-s   to 
you   thoir  thanir^;  I'or   th^   a-itienoi   ojtid  ability    thau    the   Com- 
laiRsion  havo  shfi'^fn  in  dealing-  with  theoe   prcblsas.    {Appxau3<3,) 

Ohairtsan  ALT/^,     Th.2  ^'^Cirfltui^.'^icn  apprtioiates  ivliat  iir.   Sviara 
has   Jiist   said,    nnd.  *&  will  t-ijte   it  ac   coming  from  :ill  of    those 
who   h'tye  SK3t  with,  us   from  tira^    to    t:ii2ie  .        It  is   ^i  littiv.'  iatd 
to  m3.ke  ppeochar. ,    no   thnt  sve  won'*:   have   3    Ui>;.cCi;,    but   I    Uixnk 
I   can  cay  for   the   ^onrrAt- r :on   thrit   it  h.,-.s   bu-;n  ii  v.vry    int.; resting 
''.nd    inctructive   —    to  r^s,    anyr-jy,    inotructivc    --  poriod,    and  I 


SA 


247 
2iaj  sure  we  aXl  hope   that  ws  have  done  a  little  mors  good   than 
*e  hava  done  harm.     The  Ooasmission  will  not  maot   in  a  hoaring 
again.     We  will  give  out  our  rulings  in  rtsgard  to   the  next 
three  months   and  will  pass  on  these  oth^r  mat  tors   :4S   eoon  as 
poesibld,   and  will  r<2rnain  on  call.     Our  authority,   as  lir, 
Sorris  stated   to  you  tojay,    continues  xmtil  April  1,    as  far  as 
the   rulings  of    the  Ooajniaaion  go.     And  if   you  hava  smy  sug- 
gestions   to  put  in  that    til©  Oofflniission  m3iy  consider  befora 
April  1,    if  you  will  stind   thaa  in  «w  will  act  uyon   thsm. 

Mr.   clam;.  I  do  not   i^ant  you  to  la-ave   here  before   you 

give  me   the  opportunity,    as  President  of   thi  Association,    to 
get  up  here  and   thank  ths  Oonimission  for  ths  -^'ork   tliat   they 
have   done.      I   want   to    thank   you  in  behalf  of  15,000  producers. 
I    trust  that  our  rtoiationahip   that  we  have  hadhere   in  the  past 
year  or  so  has  borne   the  feeling  tjiat  ws  shall  continue  on,- 
producsrs,    daaiers  and  the  public,-  in  tha  way  in  t!a^  future 
that  will  bs?  for   the   best  interests  of    the  dairy  industry  of 
Hess  England.      I   tiianx  you. 

Oh  airman  ALUoIR.     We    thank  you, 

Cnie  hearing  v.ae  closed  at  1,50  p.m^ ) 


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